Got embedded graphics in CPU? participants needed

[WeeGeez]

Edit: To quickly judge what tier of CPU with embedded graphics are able to play PR, refer to the chart on this guide. The guide demonstrates physical cards in action, from this one can match it with similar performing CPUs also on the chart.
Gains start to be had with Intel Iris Pro 530 and AMD A10 5800K for PR.

Hello,

I'm after volunteers, anyone with either an Intel CPU (with built in HD /Iris Graphics) or AMD (APU chip)...

Pre-amble: Mobo graphics have more recently migrated to within CPUs to become CPU+iGPU; its now less common for motherboards to come with onboard video. When these processors are added to a compatible board, the graphics unit is enabled. It can be turned off if a dedicated video is present.

In some cases both can be used simultaneously in ATI Dual Graphics arrangement. When 'Dual graphics' was introduced it only supported DX10/11 games. BF2 is DX9, however according to here its said there that updates since have added DX9 support (I can't confirm this). APU and counterpart ATI cards must match i.e. A10 Card + A10 processor. See compatibility chart. "AMD Hybrid Graphics" is the another, older but similar technique which paired motherboards onboard chips with cards, pre-APU era - Its less restricted WRT pairing (chart).

Now to my question. This isn't a 'recommend system?' thread.
I'm doing R&D for the community on lowest cost PR capable systems (high settings, frame rate, portable). I'd like to conduct a small test (in blue). It may prove ineffective for me to buy components and delivery just to do this and so this is why turn to the forum for help. So if anyone has a iGPU and is willing to help please do.

Testers; if one has a dedicated graphics card and the iGPU turned off then this is OK but whats more preferable is if you don't already have a GFX card installed, as this saves going into BIOS, disabling card, swapping monitor cables and what-not. A secondary non-gaming machine with a iGPU is ideal, because one could just install PR onto it just for this test. The processor should be ~3Ghz but this is open to variance (the more benchmarks and participants, the better).

Test 1
Run PR, using iGPU only and measure the frame rate (fraps?) and note differences, if any, between:
1st measurement: PR run under typical conditions i.e. PR.exe using all CPU cores (may be slow).
2nd measurement: As before but with Core 0 only (i.e. by setting the affinity so that the process is using none but Core 0 in task manager). (is it better?)

[Edit] Test #2
Increase Video Ram available to the iGPU (Instructions below)

I suspect PR under performs on these CPUs under normal conditions (test 1) because the bf2 engine isn't optimized for multi-core; by forcing PR to use only one core makes the rest of the cores available to the graphics portion of the chip.

Just a test eager to see the results. With this info (as a database) the community can better judge minimum requirements to play on a cost/performance ratio basis, without a dedicated card which in turn enables more portable builds.


Premise: Its been almost 12 years since the engine was released and fail to reason why integrated solutions cannot run it that well, when in comparison I could run a 2001 shooter on a budget-budget laptop manufactured late 2005 flawlessly at astonishing speed and so development of technology seems to have slowed even though we're told it gets better exponentially.

[AlonTavor]

I've had okayish frames with the onboard of i5-4460 while waiting for 970gtx to price drop. It's using the old Intel GPUs, I think any of the new ones should be more than enough.

[WeeGeez]

A second hand i5-4460 is ~ 130GBP / 180USD / 150EUR so not exactly cheap but thanks for the input.

Would you be willing to do the test?

The experiment will help determine the minimum iGPU required for good performance and simultaneously the average price of such, which can be potentially be much lower (if my suspicion is correct) than the cost of a i5-4460. The results of this test has the potential make PR more accessible to 'less affluent' players. In turn this will revitalize the community a little. I have some 'draft' example budget builds lined up but I need to try this test to refine the options more.

[AlonTavor]

Maybe i'll have time next week, I have it disabled in BIOS.
Also PR needs 2 cores. Even though its not optimized for multi-core, it still has some threads work. Context switching is expensive.

[Geronimo]

I suspect PR under performs on these CPUs under normal conditions (test 1) because the bf2 engine isn't optimized for multi-core; by forcing PR to use only one core makes the rest of the cores available to the graphics portion of the chip.

Thats not how integrated GPUs work.
This is what the die of an i5-4460 looks like (or any haswell quad core):



As you can see the GPU is a seperate part of the die. So it doesn't need the cores to do any work.
All the iGPU needs is as much memory bandwidth as possible. This is why they scale really well with fast RAM, ideally in Dual Channel mode.


To answer your question:
Back when my gtx 970 died I ran PR for a while with the hd4600 of my 4690k. I used 16gb of ddr3 @2400mhz in Dual Channel mode and overclocked the iGPU from 1200 to 1300mhz.
So my configuration was as good as it gets for haswell integrated graphics, yet the ingame performance was still shit. While I was able to get 79fps on Fallujah (local server, empty, standing still on the mosque and looking towards gas station) the more demanding stuff for the GPU like zooming through smoke and looking at tall grass (common on Yamalia when you are gunner in a smoked up LAV) sent me down to as low as 10fps. Frame pacing was also bad.

In terms of graphics settings I noticed that only resolution and anti-aliasing made a tangible difference in terms of performance. The fps numbers above are @1080p with no AA btw.

Newer Skylake and Kaby Lake iGPUs might be a bit better although I don't have any experience with them yet. But if you look at this video for example it doesn't look much better for them.

So in conclusion I really recommend a dedicated GPU for PR.

[WeeGeez]

Marketing illustrations rarely represents reality, those cores at minimum be involved in bussing things around. You've skipped the essence of the thread anyway which is to do measurements.

If you dedicate one core to the game (which is not optimized for multi-core) then this potentially can improve performance. Until measurements, its all speculation.

I agree with you on resolution and AA - I actually didn't consider res. in my 2005 title example.
As for dedicated GPUs (some 20GBP for a more than capable GT 240).

Most important is if there is even a marginal-lest of difference between having all cores enabled contrast to just one.

[WeeGeez]

Maybe I'll have time next week, I have it disabled in BIOS.
Also PR needs 2 cores. Even though its not optimized for multi-core, it still has some threads work. Context switching is expensive.

I am glad. Interesting what you say about PR needing 2 cores... I always thought EA patched vbf2 to accommodate multi core support but theres conflicting statements on this, mostly archived. Perhaps PRBF2.exe works different...


but still ...Ze Teste!!

[AlonTavor]

You can't make logic run on multiple cores without basically rewriting it from scratch. Good multi threading requires careful human engineering, It's not some checkbox you need to tick and hit compile and suddenly everything runs better.

Game has threads for sound and maybe network. If you make it run on a single core that single core will have to constantly context switch every millisecond. Its extra overhead.

[WeeGeez]

You're giving conflicting ideas,
"BF2 can't just be patched to accommodate multi core"
and
"Game has threads for sound and maybe network.



Its speculative whether freeing up unused cores in a CGPU can help, I could be wrong... but its worth a try.

[rPoXoTauJIo]

Just did a quick run on internal gpu for lulz.
My spec is i7-6700HQ CPU, and GTX 960M.
Joined lashkar, spawnscreen ~50fps, GER mainbase 40-80fps depending on view. What actually drops fps a lot is effects. Single smoke nade infront of screen dropped fps to 18-20.

Similar effect i had back in time when had PC with 9800GTX+ with only 512mb memory, low effects used less dedicated GPU memory and therefor there's was no transfer between RAM and GPURAM, while with high effects enabled it's quickly had ll GPURAM eaten and started using system RAM, which is obviously veeeeery slow.
One of theory i have is that yet iGPU already uses system RAM, it's still virtually separated block from system used RAM, therefor when it's not enough to fit all the stuff inside it(usually ~128mb locked for iGPU), it's transfers data inside, causing unnecessary delays. In this way, one of possible solutions would be to somehow increase amount of memory(to ~1gb), dedicated to iGPU, and test how it would run. Someday will do, but not today

You're giving conflicting ideas,
"BF2 can't just be patched to accommodate multi core"
and
"Game has threads for sound and maybe network.

Those are I\O, they always too slow for realtime, so even before 2005 already were threaded.
What alon speaking about is physics and render parts. While it's pretty hard to make physics threaded in steplock environment which is realtime networked FPS games by nature(https://gafferongames.com/categories/networked-physics/, Quake 3 Source Code Review: Network Model - those are articles you'd want to read), render allows some degree of parallelization. Which weren't been used back in time.
However, specific problem of bf2 engine is that it doesn't batch objects on scene(grozny(1, 2) is good example of poor performance) like modern engines do(gta5). Nvidia batch doc already had mentioned it in 2001.

[WeeGeez]

i7-6700HQ CPU ... Single smoke nade infront of screen dropped fps to 18-20.

For £280 , something just isn't right.

Was that 20fps reading with one core selected in task manager? (screenshot)

Either way thanks for the test, and the links! True, optimization is crucial. Muttrah City excels in this regard. In any case the (recurring) culprit of low FPS seems to be effects. It may well be memory related as you say;

theory i have is that yet iGPU already uses system RAM, it's still virtually separated block from system used RAM, therefor when it's not enough to fit all the stuff inside it(usually ~128mb locked for iGPU), it's transfers data inside, causing unnecessary delays. In this way, one of possible solutions would be to somehow increase amount of memory(to ~1gb), dedicated to iGPU, and test how it would run. Someday will do, but not today

There is an official Intel endorsed (it seems) memory tweak for intel graphics that relates directly to video memory.
DefaultSegmentSize Tweak... (youtube guide here).

This may require additional steps on systems with limited ram, unless an option exists in the BIOS.

• Windows uses RAM at boot (as much as it finds), see Reserve RAM for 'foreground programs'. 'hands off my ram, windows'.
• Consequently windows may resort to Page-file (hard drive ram). so maybe increase that too.
• According to this sticky, A BF2 specific tweak enables more ram for 32bit .exe on 64bit OS ('the 4GB Patch') aka "Large-Address-Aware-Flag". BF2PR.exe is patched by default. However there is another tweak for 32bit OSes called the Bootparameter tweak, which that sticky outlines.

So, In a typical iGPU setup, the memory isn't right next to the GPU unlike on dedicated cards. It doesn't help that BF2 is limited to 3.7Gb either but these changes still hold some potential in terms of performance increase.
EDIT 2: Don't forget that its also easy to increase available RAM (in Vista and above) using the 'ReadyBoost' feature, which converts flash memory into ram (usb drives / flash cards, if plugged in).

Spoiler for ReadyBoost:

These following tweaks are not video memory/RAM related:

• Change cache behavior of the main hard drive. IMO, probably negligible for systems with SSDs.
• Laptop-specific ('plugged in' vs 'battery saver') tweak but that is irrelevant here.

Step-by-step for the tweaks listed so far are shown here (in respective order).

Additional tweaks not described on that page:

• Install drivers manually via Device Manager 'Let Me Pick' Method (see video below for details). I can attest to building systems like this, its good practice as it evades unnecessary bloatware manufacturers seem to bundle with driver and so called 'Install Managers' (which can exceed 200mb, wherein relevant files are some 5mb)
• Use "PHDGD" Optimized Driver set for Intel Graphics (seems legit, see video).

[WeeGeez]

Back again,

Done bit more research. A specification that would really help to pin down the performance required for PR, atleast on the graphics-side of things, is "Memory Bandwidth" in Gb/s, I believe.

With the aid of people on here, it would extremely beneficial to somehow determine how much PR uses (peak). Once found, this amount could be added to the manual under recommended spec.

In addition and if this could be determined accurately, a solution I had in mind was to introduce a calculator on the forum somewhere where newcomers can enter video memory type, bus speed and bit depth as these all supposedly contribute to bandwidth, the calculation returns a value which would then be matched against the value in the manual.

Just an idea.

My old rig had 50Gb/s transfer, the game fine on high. Until recently (9th gen), embedded intel chips didn't go past 25 it seems. At this point theres no way of knowing if that is sufficient without running tests on individual setups.

[WeeGeez]

Low down on Intel HD Graphics

In short, any Ivy Bridge, Haswell, Broadwell, Apollo Lake, Skylake, Coffeelake generation (2012 and above excluding Valleyview) processor should be able to handle PR on 1024 x 1280 resolution at 8x AA, with optimized memory. These line support a max memory of 2GB, i.e. shared system RAM.***

This generalization applies to Desktop chips only, laptop performance is harder to pin down. The memory performance is the same across the board but core clocks vary alot.

(info retrieved from wiki article)

I have not validated any of this, hopefully somebody will eventually.

Edit: ***Keep in mind 32bit can only address 4Gig. So if you have allocated 2Gb to video this will cause alot of problems and the OS will cease to function. Dedicated cards with 1GB+ on a 32bit OS highly unadvisable.

[agus92]

I ran PR on a mid-end 2010 laptop (asus, i-5) until last year, with 4Gb of ram, and on high settings I had out of memory CTD after long play sessions (usually after 3-4 hours). I don't recommend going 2Gb RAM.

Laptop died playing PR xD

Now running PR in an intel internal GPU, works fine, but huge fps drop on smoked thermals sometimes.

[WeeGeez]

Now running PR in an intel internal GPU, works fine, but huge fps drop on smoked thermals sometimes.

Hello,

What CPU you got? How much Addressable Memory installed?

[qs-racer]

i7 3630Qm with iGpu :
-30 fps on Grozny map city, forest, without looking at concentrated asset area (eg mainbase). Goes down to 12 when poping smoke.
Max 46 on empty area. I didn't change CPU core affinity.
-80 fps with GT650m enable. Max 100, min 50-60 with smoke/fire.


Setting bellow, 1080p, high, i know it wasn't was you where looking, but this test was made 2 month ago while setup news driver and forgetting force GPU choice. Geforce driver fail to recognize PR and run it on Intel iGPU, made me mad for 1 weeks to figure it out.

Code: Select all

System Information
------------------
  Operating System: Microsoft Windows 7 Édition Familiale Premium  (6.1.7601)
      Architecture: 64 bits
   Current Culture: French (France)
       Motherboard: ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. N56VZ
         Processor: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-3630QM CPU @ 2.40GHz (Physical: 4, Logical: 8)
            Memory: 16,00 GB
      DIMM Modules: ChannelA-DIMM0: 8,00 GB @ 1600 MHz
                    ChannelB-DIMM0: 8,00 GB @ 1600 MHz
         Page File: -1904640,00 B
    .NET Framework: 4.6+ Release Build: 460805, Runtime: 4.0.30319.42000

Display Information
-------------------
 Display Device(s): Moniteur Plug-and-Play générique on Intel(R) HD Graphics 4000
   Display Mode(s): 1920 x 1080 (32 bit) @ 60 Hz
    Driver Version: 9.18.13.3182 (331.82)
    Display Memory: 4,00 GB
     Multisampling: 2, 4, 8
               DPI: 120 (125%)

Audio Information
-----------------
  Primary Playback: Haut-parleurs (Realtek High Def
 Primary Recording: Microphone (Realtek High Defini
  Open AL Renderer: Software
               EAX: True
           EAX 1.0: False
           EAX 2.0: True
           EAX 3.0: False
           EAX 4.0: False
           EAX 5.0: False
             X-RAM: False

Disk Information
----------------
      Install Path: C:\Program Files (x86)\Project Reality\Project Reality BF2
                    Free: 84,56 GB, Total: 232,88 GB, FS: NTFS, SSD: True
          Mod Path: C:\Program Files (x86)\Project Reality\Project Reality BF2\mods\pr
                    Free: 84,56 GB, Total: 232,88 GB, FS: NTFS, SSD: True
     Profiles Path: C:\Users\Quentin\Documents\ProjectReality\Profiles
                    Free: 84,56 GB, Total: 232,88 GB, FS: NTFS, SSD: True
    Update DL Path: C:\Users\Quentin\AppData\Local\Project Reality\Project Reality BF2\Downloads
                    Free: 84,56 GB, Total: 232,88 GB, FS: NTFS, SSD: True
   Update Log Path: C:\Users\Quentin\AppData\Local\Project Reality\Project Reality BF2\UpdateLogs
                    Free: 84,56 GB, Total: 232,88 GB, FS: NTFS, SSD: True

Game Information
----------------
    Installed Mods: pr, pr_ww2
       Current Mod: pr
           Version: Standalone - 1.0
        PR Version: 1.4.17.0
          Language: english
   Debug Available: False
     Large Address: True
Supported Hardware: None

Profile Information
-------------------
      Profile 0001: offlineQS
              Type: Offline
        View Intro: False
        Fullscreen: True
      Display Mode: 1920x1080@60Hz
Display Mode Valid: True
   Graphics Scheme: High
     Multisampling: 2x
             VSync: False
            NoLods: False
   Terrain Quality: High
   Effects Quality: High
  Geometry Quality: High
   Texture Quality: High
  Lighting Quality: High
   Dynamic Shadows: High
    Dynamic Lights: High
 Texture Filtering: High
    Audio Provider: Software
    Provider Valid: True
     Audio Quality: High
               EAX: True

      Profile 0002: [PRTA]qs-racer
              Type: Online
 Last Used Profile: True
        View Intro: False
        Fullscreen: True
      Display Mode: 1920x1080@60Hz
Display Mode Valid: True
   Graphics Scheme: High
     Multisampling: 4x
             VSync: False
            NoLods: False
   Terrain Quality: High
   Effects Quality: High
  Geometry Quality: High
   Texture Quality: High
  Lighting Quality: High
   Dynamic Shadows: High
    Dynamic Lights: High
 Texture Filtering: High
    Audio Provider: Software
    Provider Valid: True
     Audio Quality: High
               EAX: True

Also same experience, i don't recommend 2 Gb RAM on a 32bit Win, very slow on loading, almost unplayable in game, and lot of CTD. Tested on 2010 version of PR on laptop. Going to 4 Gb and everything get right (with extended memory trick to 3Gb)

[WeeGeez]

I've used forum systems for almost a decade and it never ceases to amaze me how easy it is to make double posts?

[WeeGeez]

Hi, thanks Good info.

Seems i7 3630QM has Intel HD 4000.

Still unconfirmed is the allocation of more VRam for iGPU and if that can reduce notorious smoke/FX lag.
If this can be tested, it can help newcomers who want cheapest PR capable system.

[inb4banned]

I tested it and smoke doesn't increase the amount of memory required, what rises is the GPU usage (from 32% to 42% on my discrete GPU). It's likely that iGPU usage is already close to 100% so when smoke deploys and asks for an additional 30% the FPS drops because iGPU is simply too shit.

[WeeGeez]

Thanks for the feedback.

I realise you said you 'monitored' the stats, but have you tried adding vRAM manually?

It might be worthwhile aswell to see if your system runs smooth with effects in Options set lower, to say medium, perhaps?