Civilian penalties not apparent enough

[BigBigMonkeyMan]

Well the real deterrent is the loss of intel points. Sure it's funny seeing a player with -500 points (especially an experienced one) but as a civi, I don't care about my points that much (though it would be awesome if a civi that got martyred a lot showed up near the top of the scoreboard). But to players that haven't read the manual in detail, intel points and the role civis play are really not easy to see or measure. I know an "intel point counter" would be super gamey and unrealistic, but some way to measure progress of intel points would be good. There are already plenty of automatic server messages that appear during insurgency games, so maybe some immersive dialogue regarding to progress towards revealing the cache could be good, such as "Slowly recovering intel" and then maybe closer to the necessary amount "Intelligence division processing intel reports."
I don't know how possible audio of this type of thing would be. I mean, once there are 50 tickets, a siren goes off that is not in game but is sent to every player individually. Same with the new commander event. BF2 used to have alerts when the enemy capped flags. I would assume it would take a little bit of work, but having those types of audio alerts could be more immersive than bright green or orange text at the top of the screen and could make everyone more aware of what is going on.
As far as civi gameplay, I agree that the breaching shotgun is OP in the arresting of civilians and I know the reason it is the way that it is (inventory slots), but on insurgency maps maybe replace the restraints on the breacher kit with the old bean bag shotgun.
I agree giving the civi some sort of weapon could make the civi-blufor meta more tense and interesting. RKGs are too powerful though, and in the right hands a pistol could be. But a six-shot revolver with two mags in reserve and booby trap grenade I think would be just the right balance, but only make this a limited kit, 5-6 per team.
I also think the civi-timer should be lowered to 1:45.
These changes would buff the civi, but making players more aware of that cost to their team, I think it would also lead to less civilian killing.

[Grump/Gump.45]

@Grump Please don't write walls of text

Look below. Its really not that hard to read, doesn't look formatted well but nothing ENTER can't fix with some paragraphs. Its just that fast pace game that makes you subconsciously feel "I don't have time to read/skim that. Im too good to listen to someone else". Im not only one doing it. I taught you in the first place through the tips. Let big brains be big brains cause it hold a lot of sounds/symbols to share. Once I read it and get the feel for it to remember what is written, thoughts and feelings are condensed lines of code to be expressed.

Well the real deterrent is the loss of intel points. Sure it's funny seeing a player with -500 points (especially an experienced one) but as a civi, I don't care about my points that much (though it would be awesome if a civi that got martyred a lot showed up near the top of the scoreboard). But to players that haven't read the manual in detail, intel points and the role civis play are really not easy to see or measure. I know an "intel point counter" would be super gamey and unrealistic, but some way to measure progress of intel points would be good. There are already plenty of automatic server messages that appear during insurgency games, so maybe some immersive dialogue regarding to progress towards revealing the cache could be good, such as "Slowly recovering intel" and then maybe closer to the necessary amount "Intelligence division processing intel reports."
I don't know how possible audio of this type of thing would be. I mean, once there are 50 tickets, a siren goes off that is not in game but is sent to every player individually. Same with the new commander event. BF2 used to have alerts when the enemy capped flags. I would assume it would take a little bit of work, but having those types of audio alerts could be more immersive than bright green or orange text at the top of the screen and could make everyone more aware of what is going on.
As far as civi gameplay, I agree that the breaching shotgun is OP in the arresting of civilians and I know the reason it is the way that it is (inventory slots), but on insurgency maps maybe replace the restraints on the breacher kit with the old bean bag shotgun.
I agree giving the civi some sort of weapon could make the civi-blufor meta more tense and interesting. RKGs are too powerful though, and in the right hands a pistol could be. But a six-shot revolver with two mags in reserve and booby trap grenade I think would be just the right balance, but only make this a limited kit, 5-6 per team.
I also think the civi-timer should be lowered to 1:45.
These changes would buff the civi, but making players more aware of that cost to their team, I think it would also lead to less civilian killing.

BigMonkeyMan, Thank you for your input into the civilian issue. Commander of BLUFOR should have a scroll history list to track caches down and civilians killed/arrested. Like I said, we need team based punishments for that peer pressure.

Loving the ideas for RKG and a few concealed weapons for civilians, don't know how possible that is. Wish insurgent civilians could wear rags on the head like the fighters, provide more confusion and not be obvious as civilian with nothing on. Even the Hamas civilian looks like a fighter with the mask/uniform.

We need to be able to stand in front of roadblocks to protect them from the tank taking down the hard work. Civilian is one of the few insurgency balances because it takes 5-20 minutes to build roadblocks but tank takes them down in 60 seconds, and you actually have to coordinate the human shield to be done.

Its un-balanced and un-realistic to have a breacher who could arrest them by lone wolfing from a rooftop close by, arresting as fast as he can aim and click. It has happened in past and I refuse to put free easy arrests out there at a landmark position with no cover. Same for a rock throwing line that could actually be effective at defending cache mixed with fighters on rooftops. Another barrier of work, barriers that support each other by the rules functions. Can't just allow arresting people from a rooftop at distance.

Its fair enough to require security for civilians from basically having zombies try to arrest them, it becomes a little minigame for the insurgent fighter to shoot the closest guy with cuffs. Forces the insurgent fighter to peek with APC security in area to save his guy or have civilian run to him. It says right at the top "Realistic Gaming Redefined". I will invoke it.

[rogdozz]

After the discussion we've had so far it seems like the minimum, no-brainer solution is to remove shotgun arrest. Basically everyone seems to support that change, and it would help make insurgency game mode more balanced (currently on almost every INS map the insurgents are at a heavy disadvantage)

[Grump/Gump.45]

After the discussion we've had so far it seems like the minimum, no-brainer solution is to remove shotgun arrest. Basically everyone seems to support that change, and it would help make insurgency game mode more balanced (currently on almost every INS map the insurgents are at a heavy disadvantage)

Like civilians could actually gather without having to suddenly scatter when a shotgun starts firing. All dropped kits as ANY insurgent should yield rocks. Civilians defend the cache and human shield the roadblocks while providing 10 other uses at the same time related to baiting, distraction and chaos. I just recently found out that dropping your kit, is actually requesting a "dropped kit" that has a location you can go back to and drop your kit which has improved my playing dead skill.

Just imagine having a crowd that any fighter regardless of civilian timer can drop weapon and join to wait out their timer. We could have a AKM RKG kit dropped within the crowd for somebody to pick up if they try to arrest us with cuffs. Just so much realism possibilities. I am thinking of ways for a fighter to stand infront of the crowd and make enemy miss him to get civis martyred behind him. So many funny things could happen if we change the shotgun from instant arrest to stamina bar empty.

Like I said, we could have shotgun empty full stamina bar to assist in cuff arrest or be used as self defense against rushing civilian crowd against outnumbered soldiers. But have it with penalty hitbox against civilian, like hitting a civilian in the head violating the correct use of a beanbag round and treatment of civilians. With -25% health and -1 intel point per headshot with beanbag shotgun. Maiming and permanently disfiguring/damaging civilians is a loss of intel -1 until death which is -5 right now, with 4 head hits could total -9 in that specific scenario.

It could even apply to rifles, every bullet a civilian gets hit with and survives is -1 intel while they are mobile. -1 intel to reflect extra brutality. Shooting a civilian in the limb is -1 intel each shot it takes till death which usually takes 2 shots to the leg so -7 intel max. With pistol it could be up to 3 or 4 hits so -8 or-9 intel max. Killing a civilian faster versus basically torturing them with bullet wounds till dead to reflect brutality. So people are careful how they do things.

JUSTICE FOR CIVILIANS... MORE PENALITIES FOR WAR CRIMES. REPRIMAND ENTIRE UNITS FOR ACTIONS OF ONE SOLDIER.

THEY SHOULD BE GIVEN PENALTY INCENTIVES TO POLICE EACH OTHER. STARTING FROM THE SQUAD LEADER FOR REALISM

[Stolt_Yugoslav]

"banned for 5 minutes". Instant court-martial!

Extra fun if youre playing on HoG and its 100/100. People will be more careful I promise.

[Unibomber]

There are so many fantastic suggestions in this thread I hope we can implement soon. We really need to revitalize the Civilian role and make it worthwhile, otherwise there is no point in it being there.

[dcm]

Instead of removing shotgun arrests. Make it so that shotguns do not count as either kills or arrests. So you still have some way of long range civi removal.

Or you can make it that civi kills are not punishable at all. You handcuff them that's fine. You get intel. You put a bullet in their heads. Eh he deserved it. But in exchange arrested civis dont give as much intel(maybe 50-100% of a regular kill) and their respawns are unaffected. Massacred civis provide zero intel.

Or how about removing civis from the equation entirely? Yeah there would still be civis. But killing/arresting them yields nothing. No penalty, No bonus. They could be minding their own business. But the second they pull out a phone or binocs or medical supplies they're fair game.

Question: Is it possible to repurpose Bots into NPCs? I was thinking that maybe it be possible to have bots act as civis instead? They'd still be part of the opfor team. But they go about their day like normal. They'ed drive cars and just walk around the map. They'ed flee at the sound of gunfire. And regular insurgents could hide among them.

[axytho]

Instead of removing shotgun arrests. Make it so that shotguns do not count as either kills or arrests. So you still have some way of long range civi removal.

Or you can make it that civi kills are not punishable at all. You handcuff them that's fine. You get intel. You put a bullet in their heads. Eh he deserved it. But in exchange arrested civis dont give as much intel(maybe 50-100% of a regular kill) and their respawns are unaffected. Massacred civis provide zero intel.

Or how about removing civis from the equation entirely? Yeah there would still be civis. But killing/arresting them yields nothing. No penalty, No bonus. They could be minding their own business. But the second they pull out a phone or binocs or medical supplies they're fair game.

Question: Is it possible to repurpose Bots into NPCs? I was thinking that maybe it be possible to have bots act as civis instead? They'd still be part of the opfor team. But they go about their day like normal. They'ed drive cars and just walk around the map. They'ed flee at the sound of gunfire. And regular insurgents could hide among them.

The point is to prevent massacres and to make Bluefor think before blanketing an area with HE-FRAG or 40mm grenades.

[ismaelassassin]

Instead of removing shotgun arrests. Make it so that shotguns do not count as either kills or arrests. So you still have some way of long range civi removal.

Or you can make it that civi kills are not punishable at all. You handcuff them that's fine. You get intel. You put a bullet in their heads. Eh he deserved it. But in exchange arrested civis dont give as much intel(maybe 50-100% of a regular kill) and their respawns are unaffected. Massacred civis provide zero intel.

Or how about removing civis from the equation entirely? Yeah there would still be civis. But killing/arresting them yields nothing. No penalty, No bonus. They could be minding their own business. But the second they pull out a phone or binocs or medical supplies they're fair game.

Question: Is it possible to repurpose Bots into NPCs? I was thinking that maybe it be possible to have bots act as civis instead? They'd still be part of the opfor team. But they go about their day like normal. They'ed drive cars and just walk around the map. They'ed flee at the sound of gunfire. And regular insurgents could hide among them.

I´d rather go with grump´s idea of making the shotgun eliminate your stamina.

[Unibomber]

I´d rather go with grump´s idea of making the shotgun eliminate your stamina.

Exactly what a non-lethal shotgun round is designed to do. Put you on your butt for a few seconds. Hope they go with this.

[bad_nade]

The only reason to play insurgent side is (was?) higher chance of winning. This is the asymmetry I like the most in INS game mode, no matter which side I play. Blufor can get better everything as long as they only rarely win. Playing with good guns and assets is fun. Winning is fun. But for the most of the time these two must not happen at the same time. That's why I see this discussion about nerfing yet another INS asset quite troublesome.

That being said, there are some features with the civilian "kit" that can be exploited too easily. Like jumping off from rooftop while bleeding, or just landing on top of a manned blufor vehicle, leads to civ kill penalty for the blufor. There is also an exploit level feature regarding dropping your kit while surrounded by civis: Cool down timer applies only to the insurgent who drops his kit to become civilian but it does not apply to other nearby civilians. The moment an insrugent drops his kit, everybody else around him are protected by the Rules of Engagement.

I think all these issues can be solved. For example, civilian could be spawn-only kit that cannot be dropped or picked up. Once a civi, always a civi. ROE should still apply, of course. So, hanging out with your armed insurgent friends should make you fair game.

[jf666]

I think all these issues can be solved. For example, civilian could be spawn-only kit that cannot be dropped or picked up. Once a civi, always a civi. ROE should still apply, of course. So, hanging out with your armed insurgent friends should make you fair game.

No, this is not what insurgency is about. Blufor should be paranoid just like in real life whether or not a civilian might pull out a gun.

The penalties should indeed be increased. Make it 20/30/60 minutes without a special kit, I dunno. It's just boring to play civi when blufor is too trigger happy, especially with too many new players. No challenge at all.