Minor and major historical inaccuracies

[Corvin]

Hello some WW2 inaccuracies i find out in PR and would love to report.

Easy fixes:
German Engineer (Pioner)
Currently using wrongly Kar98 - in fact German Pioners were equipped with MP-40 or other SMG by doctrine so standard Pioner Squad had one more additional SMG compare to standard Granadier squad. That's easy fix.

German Spotter: as part of two man unit they were equipped with SMG (Mp40) just like equivalents of other armies (US spotter should get either Grease gun or Tommy too)

On Carentan:
Alternative Automatic RIfleman should get MG-34/42 instead of MP-40. And considering that was Fallschirmjäger fighting there in real life they could get MP-40 for other kits instead (medic, breacher perhaps) since both Regiment of 6. FSJ division and 3rd FSJ div in Normandy had confirmed extra number of SMGs in use.

Panzer IV C/D and StuG III B just shouldn't exist on 1944+ maps - if any of those were in service they were at eastern front in reserve divisions or just few used by 21st Panzer. Those tanks were totally out of service and should be replaced by either Pz IV F2 (which are innaccurate too but still better)

Grease Gun is under represented in game currently. Falklands have correct model of it and some roles for US could use it: engineer, alternative medic, spotter etc.

US Squad Leader on US Airbourne maps could get M1 Carabine instead of M1 Garands which would be more accurate

Bigger issues:
BAR default zeroing sights at 800m by default - just unnecessary addition for model limiting sights

Lee Enfield for US sniper... ugh but thats well known issue

M8 Greyhound model currently is just bad and inaccurate - it was open top vehicle with .50 cal on the turret top ring

Cheers

[Hans_Strudel]

German Engineer (Pioner)
Currently using wrongly Kar98 - in fact German Pioners were equipped with MP-40 or other SMG by doctrine so standard Pioner Squad had one more additional SMG compare to standard Granadier squad. That's easy fix.

German Spotter: as part of two man unit they were equipped with SMG (Mp40) just like equivalents of other armies (US spotter should get either Grease gun or Tommy too)

[Corvin]

Well in fact there were highly StG-44 equipped divisions 78. Sturm-Division or Grossdeutchland so it isn't sci-fi however majority of StG-44 production durning Overlord/Bargration was deployed in the east with some divs like mentioned one have priority in use them.

However i am talking about two clear cases where SMG was assigned by default in German army:
https://www.quartermastersection.com/ge ... MPANIE1943

https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn714fg1jun44.htm

There are actually more sources since i working on it in other game: Steel Division 2 Lemme know if needed

[Grump/Gump.45]

Sort of like how US has WW2, Vietnam, modern variants including separate USMC and US Army. The German Army should have several era loadouts. Later in the war you would see more advanced weapons. Starting with what we have now, the early war days with MP40, K98, MG34. Then escalate to Fallschirmjäger units majority advanced new weapons. Would love to see German paratroopers.

[Corvin]

Sort of like how US has WW2, Vietnam, modern variants including separate USMC and US Army. The German Army should have several era loadouts. Later in the war you would see more advanced weapons. Starting with what we have now, the early war days with MP40, K98, MG34. Then escalate to Fallschirmjäger units majority advanced new weapons. Would love to see German paratroopers.

In game we have currently just 1944-1945 set-up tho so i think no need that.

[Frontliner]

snip

Most of what you're saying with respect to the proliferation of German small arms to me seems like video-game-induced WW2 folklore. The Wehrmacht never had suifficient SMGs to the point that equipping a squad with more than one MP40 was the norm rather than an exception reserved only for smaller unit formations(probably not more than battailon strength, if even that) and many of the desired divisional ToEs that listed any given quantity of SMGs, self-loading rifles and the StG 44 were wishful thinking and would never be even remotely fulfilled. Most of the production quotas considering the attrition would've been hard to fulfill without both war and civilian infrastructure bombed on the regular.

Even if you were correct, - you aren't, for the record, but I'll pretend for a moment that you are - and more kits would be the recipients of (semi-) automatic small arms, you would end up with an undesireable clusterfuck of kits for your so-called "average" infantry squad. Every person who has thus far advocated for aforementioned distribution increase is likely just asking for an option to not use the Kar98k in particular for "X" kit, with the reasoning "well, some unit somewhere might've actually gotten a second SMG". Well, I'm sorry to say this, but what we're doing is brushing with a very broad stroke, and the average Joe(or rather, Josef) had a Kar98k and that doesn't change, no matter if we're talking 1939, 1941 or even mid 1944.

Additionally, the current state of the faction balance doesn't seem to favour either side with a more or less equal win distribution(which is a very much desired and intended outcome, historical accuracy be damned!). And although I've seen a faction may get stomped on a particular map, I've also seen it go completely in the other direction.
If Wehr was getting slapped sideways from dusk till dawn every time, on every map, then maybe we would have to adjust somewhere, but that's simply not the case.

[Nate.]

However i am talking about two clear cases where SMG was assigned by default in German army:
https://www.quartermastersection.com/ge ... MPANIE1943

https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn714fg1jun44.htm

There are actually more sources since i working on it in other game: Steel Division 2 Lemme know if needed

it seems both of your links show that the average joe pioneer indeed had a k89k?

[dcm]

I dont really play PR:WW2(I'll play it if there's nothing else available, but I dont go out of the way to). I think it's inherently imbalanced and for lack of a better word; 'Broken.' Sure there are times on maps and certain map layers, where the german team is competitive with the american team. But those times are few and far in between. I dont believe that dismissing the OP's points out of hand, is productive and beneficial to the life and health of PR:WW2, and PR as a whole. Sure some of the suggestions are untenable. But the PR:WW2 needs to be looked at. It's a diamond in the rough. It just needs some more polishing to reach it's potential.

[Suchar]

The firepower of the german team is more concentrated in a few specific kits while in american kits it is more spread out. Germans have a few very strong kits and it requires teamwork to use them efficiently. It also means the skill factor of a single player is more important in the case of the german team.

So if you think the german team is at a disadvantage, it comes down to skill issue.

[Frontliner]

I dont believe that dismissing the OP's points out of hand, is productive and beneficial to the life and health of PR:WW2,

he says, while dismissing the explanations that were given to OP offhand, completely unaware of the double standard.

If you can't be arsed to rebutt what I say, zip it, and let the OP talk instead.

[dcm]

he says, while dismissing the explanations that were given to OP offhand, completely unaware of the double standard.

If you can't be arsed to rebutt what I say, zip it, and let the OP talk instead.

I only treat you as you treat others.

[Frontliner]

You're not actually going to tell me that you think this self-victimisation helps you in making your arguments better?

[dcm]

You're still mad that I criticized your pet project? Jesus Christ man it's been over a year and a half. Just let it go. Whatever criticism I have toward pr:ww2, does not reflect upon you as a person.

P.S. And stop sending me PMs with your scoreboard screenshots. I dont care.

[InfantryGamer42]

You're still mad that I criticized your pet project? Jesus Christ man it's been over a year and a half. Just let it go. Whatever criticism I have toward pr:ww2, does not reflect upon you as a person.

Only person which could be considered as heaving pet project is you and your constant push to increace amount of automatic weapons Wehr gets, even when:
1.) that is historically inaccurate, as German MG centric infantry squad organization forced realience on the MG as main source of firepower, while techonological and industrial limitations prevented needed production of submachine guns and (semi)automatic rifles to effectively replace Kar 98.
2.) does not fix any apparent balance issue which only you see.

Core thing about WW2 infantry is that we had bunch of countries with different doctrinal needs and ideas on one hand, and different techonological and industrial capabilities on other, that lead both in real life and in game to asymetric squad organisations and weapon allocation.

While US infantry spreads there firepower around all members, it lacks proper MG which should offer that needed base of fire. On other hand, Wehr concentrates firepower in few crusial kits for specific engangement ranges, while rest with there Kar 98 are there to provide support to those kits and little extra firepower. Balance is in core asymetric, but it is also well done, as both aproches force teamwork as only way for respective infantry squads to actually archive something in game (and that is beyond add more standard PR mechanics in the mix).

[Corvin]

1.) that is historically inaccurate, as German MG centric infantry squad organization forced realience on the MG as main source of firepower, while techonological and industrial limitations prevented needed production of submachine guns and (semi)automatic rifles to effectively replace Kar 98.
2.) does not fix any apparent balance issue which only you see.

That's not necessary correct too. Germans have huge stocks of SMGs from captured countries like Berettas M38, Ppsh-41 (those in bigger numbers) and things like MAS-38 or captured Stens.
There were prioritized units that were getting more SMGs and one of those were Fsj units, including 6th Fsj Regiment that fought in Carentan and 3rd Fsj Division also in Normandy had even higher use of SMGs.


However i find it weird to discuss about that in case of balance since imo MP-40 is downgrade over rifle tbh

[SemlerPDX]

...
P.S. And stop sending me PMs with your scoreboard screenshots. I dont care.

This sounds suspiciously like, "Don't confuse me with the facts, I've already made up my mind."

Maybe you should re-read Frontliner's first detailed reply to OP? I don't think anyone here, including Corvin, would get the impression that the reply was dismissing Corvin's points "out of hand", but rather presenting facts and salient explanations with sound reasoning as to why things are the way they are now and also how tricky/difficult it would be to change them (without negatively affecting other relative elements). That is quite different from dismissing them.

If Frontliner is sending you PM's with scoreboards (likely in an attempt to support his position), I personally cannot see how this is not going above and beyond to help you understand that he is not dismissing this/these points but attempting to properly refute them with facts and in-game realities and the reasoning behind these decisions.

Some weapons were far less prevalent IRL than most gamers realize, and game balance dictates further restriction as needed to ensure the average match is not weighted too heavily on one side or the other. Couple that with the fact that individual maps require even further micromanagement of kit and asset distribution, and what we get is something far more difficult to change than simply adding more of "X" weapon to one or another faction. It gets deep, and there are MANY more factors to consider, as Frontliner pointed out very well.

...

On another point, I feel you should re-read some of your own posts before you hit the reply button yourself - no offense intended at all - this is just a video game, and of course some folks are gonna be passionate about their opinions, but introducing slights and exacerbated frustration in your replies is unproductive, and at times, potentially hurtful to these people who just wanna make a video game. It's one thing to express ourselves truthfully, but entirely another thing to allow these expressions to dig into those we're interacting with.

I'm sure criticism is welcome, if it has a constructive purpose, but we can't assume all our ideas are going to fit within the current concept the developers and contributors are attempting to employ. When they give detailed replies as to why some thing(s) exist as they are (and therefore may not change, or change easily) when discussing suggestions in particular, it is the best anyone could hope for and is a far cry from what would be considered dismissive responses by most people.

[Ts4EVER]

Oh, one of my favourite topics... time to log back in and nerd around a bit. Note everything I will talk about refers to the Normandy timeframe.

Hello some WW2 inaccuracies i find out in PR and would love to report.

Easy fixes:
German Engineer (Pioner)
Currently using wrongly Kar98 - in fact German Pioners were equipped with MP-40 or other SMG by doctrine so standard Pioner Squad had one more additional SMG compare to standard Granadier squad. That's easy fix.

That is kind of a half truth. For one thing, most men in a Pionier group still used rifles. This can even be seen in the sources you posted a bit further down. Now in a Panzerpionier Platoon there was supposed to be one more smg, but that was the board weapon of the apc. So technically they had access to 2, yes:

https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn714fg1jun44.htm

HOWEVER, the German infantry squad organisation in use at the time also had 2 smgs, one for the squad leader and one unassigned, probably for his assistant.


https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn131n1mai44.htm

Now gameplay wise, I would probably argue that if you pick a pioneer kit, you just play as a lowly pioneer, not a squad leader and also not an APC driver, so the K98k is completely accurate and we have the same setup on literally every FH2 map as well. And FH2 takes historical accuracy a lot more seriously.

German Spotter: as part of two man unit they were equipped with SMG (Mp40) just like equivalents of other armies (US spotter should get either Grease gun or Tommy too)

This might technically be true, if a spotter is supposed to be a specialised guy attached to the infantry or tank unit from an artillery battery. That said, he would be low on the totem pole for receiving an smg, so might have used just a pistol or a rifle more in practice.
The Americans tended to give out M1 Carbines to these kind of roles. In fact, smgs were not massively common in the US army and often used more by vehicle crews or as a floating reserve of guns that could be used however, not assigned to a specific role. For instance, US squad leader on paper were equipped with Garands, but starting in July 44 there were 6 Thompsons in reserve in each rifle company. Did these often go to squad leaders? Apparently, but often they also were kept back for patrols and stuff like that.

On Carentan:
Alternative Automatic RIfleman should get MG-34/42 instead of MP-40. And considering that was Fallschirmjäger fighting there in real life they could get MP-40 for other kits instead (medic, breacher perhaps) since both Regiment of 6. FSJ division and 3rd FSJ div in Normandy had confirmed extra number of SMGs in use.

6th FSJ Division was not in Normandy, you mean 6th regiment.
Other than that this is true, they had more smgs on average than an infantry division and also 2 lmgs in each squad instead of just one. They also had a lot more sniper rifles and probably one in each squad, possibly using the ZF41 scope. This is based on the original strength reports our researcher found recently.

Panzer IV C/D and StuG III B just shouldn't exist on 1944+ maps - if any of those were in service they were at eastern front in reserve divisions or just few used by 21st Panzer. Those tanks were totally out of service and should be replaced by either Pz IV F2 (which are innaccurate too but still better)

This is true. 21st had one Panzer IVC and it may not have been used. Not sure if the older Stug models were in use, I know they turned up later in Holland.

Grease Gun is under represented in game currently. Falklands have correct model of it and some roles for US could use it: engineer, alternative medic, spotter etc.

The Grease Gun was used exactly like the Thompson in the way I described above and by the time of Normany the Thompson was still more common. US engineers were not officially assigned any smgs, they had Garands and Carbines.

US Squad Leader on US Airbourne maps could get M1 Carabine instead of M1 Garands which would be more accurate

No, that is video game nonsense, Airborne squad leaders had Garands according to ToE. The M1A1 Carbine in Airborne units was used by mortar or MG crews as well as officers and other such roles. A squad leader would not have been issued with one officially. Now, did it never happen? Probably it did, but a Garand is still more accurate.

Won't argue with the other stuff, that is just an issue of the assets not being there.

[SemlerPDX]

Oh, one of my favourite topics... time to log back in and nerd around a bit. ...

lol - j/k