CNC: Can it be better?

[B4ckp4ck]

CNC: Can it be better?

CNC BATTLE! event

I have played a game of Command and Conquer only once in my entire PR career(400-500h). When i realised that three weeks ago, I concluded that the only way to play this gamemode is to organise an event, which I did.

Pre-event issues

First problem that I encountered was asset balance on Vadso map:
2 x btr-80 vs. 2x Warrior
1x Chinook & 1x Merlin vs 2X KA-29
Blufor is clearly at an advantage. This issue is not solely limited to Vadso. I was able to overcome this by using altered server files.

Second issue was that CnC code and reality seem to be different. During testing my players were unable to replicate 50 ticket penalty for losing the FOB, moreover without the game code, ticket management was hard to comprehend. One of the participants created an overlay, that I think should be implemented on the map gallery. [LINK]


Event stage

Despite small planning issues, launch was a succes. We started 18 minutes past planned time. For more context check the [tracker] and feel free to have a look at these videos: [xpugr's video] [Suchar's video]. Deployment went better for the BLUFOR side. Both teams deployed their FOBs and set up a perimeter defence. That is when the problem with CnC logic started. When two teams have FOBs deployed, there is no incentive to attack the other FOB. This may cause "turtle-ing", and leaves the attacking team at disadvantage. This is because attacking team cannot leave their base unattended, yet the defenders are at full force after choosing "defend only" strategy. Let's say we have 30 players attacking vs. 40 players defending on a prepared position, it's a NO-WIN situation for the attackers.

Second serious issue is that CnC games just take too long. My event lasted for 1hr 54 even when blufor commander attacked redfor fob for over 1 hour. Public AAS games usually last less than 60 minutes. This may be one of the reasons why this gamemode is left out on public servers. In my opinion the most contributing factor is that there's no bleed when the enemy fob is up.


How do we fix the most serious issues?

My proposal is to introduce slow bleed whenever the enemy FOB is up. Team with fob closer to the map edge should have a sligtly greater bleed. If one team menages to destroy enemy's FOB, the opposing team should recive bleed similar to [this] chart. No bleed should occur only when:
-both FOB's are down
-frienly FOB is up and enemy FOB is down
Slow bleed (one that starts when the enemy FOB is up) should drain all tickets in around 1h 30 minutes to limit the time of match.


Summary

Introducing slow bleed would solve both problems(turtle-ing, matches taking to long) by giving actual reason to attack the other FOB. It would change 2-hour-long game of chicken into a real fight!

Please feel free to leave your feedback about CnC gamemode below.

PS: Another possible solution that may also be implemented simultaneously, is to lower the bleed for the enemy team by half, when more than 24 friendlies are in 300-500m radious of FOB.

[robert357]

This wont change much tbh. The issue is both teams must defend and attack simultaneously. As you said before, it's better to defend with full force than attack with less force. Tweaking bleed etc. wont change that, because defending with full force is still better and this will only change how long game would last.

The issue with CnC is lack of multiple targets and task you have to do to win a game. In CnC you need defend FOB and attack enemy FOB, that's it. Now lets look at other gamemode - INS. On INS one team is always attacking, other always defending. There are two points on map, so defending is harder, because if whole team is defending only one objective, then they will loose second one. Both teams also have additional objectives like destroy FOBs/hideouts, gather intel and be annoying civie.
Even on AAS despite having one flag that you have defend and one flag that you have attack stalemates are rare and mostly will occur on bleed flags or on some "assault" type maps (and on horrible Kashan). Before attacking you usually need build FOBs and neutralize enemy FOBs to have better advantage. So both teams are focused on multiple tasks rather than on only two.

I personally don't know how to make CnC better. Maybe only one team at the time could have FOB active, so other team would focus on attacking or both teams could place FOB only certain distance from the centre of the map?

[agus92]

A small note.

On your event, you assume the defensive team was on "defense-only" mindset. And that is not entirely true. There were plans drawn to attack with overwhelming force, with the aid of artillery attack. These plans got delayed because bluefor moved their FOB and it had to be located again.

So, my point: decreased timer for artillery could be a quick fix to current CnC. Against a prepared position, much like real life, you need an artillery attack to allow for an aggressive action. The more frequent those artillery strikes are available, the more frequent good attacks against the defended FOBs can happen.

[K-Massive]

Considering the artillery factor, the event was agreed to not use mortars or UAV.

Then again mortars could give the advantage of fire support, but was agreed it would be too easy to possibly snipe the FOB with mortars (which I agree, it would)

Problems would be the same regardless of the game mode, on public servers. If you have 8-man squad "doing their own stuff", thats 8 guys less doing not organized stuff, be it language barrier, personal preference or whatever.

I feel like CNC's blessing and curse is the freedom of it, you dont have clear objectives on the marker where the play is focused, but you also have to manage assaulting, defending, logistics, in order to do stuff.

Maybe its just too big of a plate for the current day players?

[puffkiller]

What kind of combat is the CNC mode simulating? Is it positional warfare? It's not very similar.

I have played twice and both sides have low enthusiasm. People are more like playing hide and seek, trying to hide the fob and secretly approaching it.

Some guys will build FOBs in strange places, and UAVs cannot scout.

The final vote enters the next round.

[mries]

Would a combination of AAS and CnC be interesting? For example that there is 1 capable flag in the centre of the map and only 1 fob per team which results in bleed when lost.

Capping the flag gives a buff, losing the flag a penalty or something.

[Catmouse]

CNC: Can it be better?

Summary

Introducing slow bleed would solve both problems(turtle-ing, matches taking to long) by giving actual reason to attack the other FOB. It would change 2-hour-long game of chicken into a real fight!

Please feel free to leave your feedback about CnC gamemode below.

Seconded. A stronger incentive towards offensive operations is needed.

I perhaps the introduction a bleed to the enemy faction depending on the location of the friendly FOB is a simple but elegant solution:

1) The bleed would be starting once a FOB has been created
2) The bleed function would have a finer resolution when it comes to the parameter radius from map center.

[puffkiller]

The central area of the map has a random flag with a large occupation range of 1km.

[CAS_ual_TY]

Everyone here completely overanalyzing the whole situation. How are you meant to attack without spawn points?

Make rally points permanent, or increase their running time significantly and allow proper human wave attacks.

Additionally, make it worth to attack a FOB by also introducing an instant penalty, similar to when losing a flag on AAS.

There you go, CNC fun now.

[...]


How do we fix the most serious issues?

My proposal is to introduce slow bleed whenever the enemy FOB is up. Team with fob closer to the map edge should have a sligtly greater bleed. If one team menages to destroy enemy's FOB, the opposing team should recive bleed similar to [this] chart. No bleed should occur only when:
-both FOB's are down
-frienly FOB is up and enemy FOB is down
Slow bleed (one that starts when the enemy FOB is up) should drain all tickets in around 1h 30 minutes to limit the time of match.

[...]

This is also a good suggestion.



you are all welcome

[TheMerchantOfMenace]

Everyone here completely overanalyzing the whole situation. How are you meant to attack without spawn points?

Make rally points permanent, or increase their running time significantly and allow proper human wave attacks.

Not answering directly to CAS_ual_TY, answering here more generally to the playerbase and the DEVs...

Unfortunately, human wave attacks have become all too common in PR, they have become the lazy, unimaginative playerbase's default method of taking on any challenging objective.

CAS_ual_TY, you having commanded in tournaments in the past, I don't expect that you are suggesting that tactic to be used as a matter of routine on PR, I know you were simply addressing the solution to the request of the posters above, but I would hope that the DEVs might not consider mechanics that would facilitate the frequent use of human wave tactics, as this tactic is counter to the original intent of PR and can only serve to degrade the quality of PR gameplay.

It's sad to see so much of the PR gameplay nowadays as just a lemming-like tossing of bodies to the enemy... to see everyone rushing madly upon spawning, to the nearest enemy or objective without the slightest thought of attack method, nor coordination with squad or team members. Facilitating more of this kind of mess will not help to bring back or keep the gameplay to what it once was or to what it is supposed to be.

[TheMerchantOfMenace]

Second serious issue is that CnC games just take too long. My event lasted for 1hr 54 even when blufor commander attacked redfor fob for over 1 hour. Public AAS games usually last less than 60 minutes. This may be one of the reasons why this gamemode is left out on public servers. In my opinion the most contributing factor is that there's no bleed when the enemy fob is up.

I can't agree with the time issue being raised, and I'm hoping that there is still a significant enough PR playerbase that is in agreement.

It is unfortunate that PR has become a rush-rush, hurry-up-and-get-it-over-with type of game, but it feels like most Pub rounds nowadays are this way, too rushed, not enough conversation and coordination amoungst squad members, squads, and team.

All that being said, having played all too often on the side of unbalanced dog-poop Pub teams, even one hour can seem like an eternity.

[TheMerchantOfMenace]

decreased timer for artillery could be a quick fix to current CnC. Against a prepared position, much like real life, you need an artillery attack to allow for an aggressive action. The more frequent those artillery strikes are available, the more frequent good attacks against the defended FOBs can happen.

Not a bad idea, but if this were to happen, I would hope that these arty strikes would not be more frequent than 20 min. intervals... perhaps even 25 mins.

A potential problem with frequent Arty is that it drastically reduces the locations one can build the FOB, since only FOBs located within a building could be shovelled as the artillery is falling (thinking of the scenario this weekend whereas with the FOB being underground, the defenders are able to shovel the FOB as it's collapsing, if in great enough numbers). The defending team would have no chance of keeping their FOB alive if it were located outside of buildings or other overhead structures, so only maps with large cities would allow for the enemy FOB to be difficult to find... most maps the opposing team would only have small amounts of terrain to explore in order to find the enemy, since FOB cover would be sparse.

[Suchar]

I would hope that the DEVs might not consider mechanics that would facilitate the frequent use of human wave tactics

Never

123456

[CAS_ual_TY]

Never

???

!!!!!!!!

[Suchar]

I feel exposed way sooner than I intended.

[CAS_ual_TY]

I am absolutely, positively, affirmatively suggesting turning CNC into a gamemode where human wave attacks are a viable tactic. The proper "teamwork" gamemode will always be AAS and we already have a fuck-around gamemode in the forms of Insurgency.

Turning CNC into this could allow for a lot of fun. You will still need teamwork to take down an enemy super FOB position (defenders advantage, foxholes, mortars, TOW, etc.) and you may find yourself on the side of relentless attacks or on defense against them.

On the point of arty, I am actually in favor of removing it. You have this gamemode where your objective is to defend/attack an FOB, but at the same time you literally have a "delete-the-enemy-fob"-button every 30 minutes. Whats the point in that?

So to summarize the suggestions again:
- Significantly buff rally points
- Enemy FOB up = you get ticket bleed REGARDLESS of your FOB status. Ticket bleed still depends on centring
- Remove arty

Here you go. Fun and unique gamemode. CoMpEtItIvElY viable. Youre welcome.

[bad_nade]

I think bleed start could be delayed like 5 minutes, or even random amout of minutes (0 - 5) so that it's harder to estimate enemy FOB location based on timing, and give teams time to build other structures.

Number of different circles/regions for bleed rates could also be reduced to three by widening and combining them. Like merge the two innermost regions into one and the two other rings around them into one.

Due to the delay, low-end bleed rates could be increased a bit as well.

[Grump/Gump.45]

I have built a FOB as close to the middle as I can. Our FOB lasted the whole round in this place without getting destroyed, had tanks support to break up attacks before they went out, came back to FOB, went back to main and went out again.

My strategy involves setting up the super FOB balancing between setting up as close to main as possible and the middle of the map. That way we have all our assets right there close to us, also less dangerous distance and unknown anti-air/anti-tank areas to travel.

Tanks should defend to break up attacks and break the enemies confidence, de-coordinate them with casualties. One second they have enough to attack, few deaths later they don't. A few failed attacks gives leaves you with more tickets than them. Strategically crush them, set the battlefield objectives and events to create.

I believe in the positions of the FOB acting like a booby trap. 4 tanks, 4 APCs, 2 jets. That is a lot of firepower and security to add to a FOB. The armor should never set up directly on the FOB, you want enemy to choose between bombing/artillery between the super FOB or the armor which can be like another mobile super FOB in view.

The FOB needs to be big enough where an artillery attack will hurt only part of it. Fighting line of majority of the FOB assets 200 meters forward of the FOB, so artillery on foxholes doesn't hit the FOB. FOBs have a 200 meter build radius, use up as much as possible. This requires squad leaders to actually move further when they place assets.

When I see bunched up FOB assets I know a lazy, complacent or careless squad leader is around not using the full potential of the brain, to look at what is in the game starting from biggest threats of explosives like CAS bombs and artillery. Its a game, you use your fingers to walk.

I have seen evidence of squad leaders placing HMGs that are blocked by a foxhole that wasn't thought out, as simple as putting foxhole infront of HMGs.

10 foxholes, 2 HMGs, 1 AA, 1 TOW, 2 mortars. If you place mortars they get their own spot away from the FOB and assets 100 to 200 meters, count the keypads. This was counter mortars don't also hit everything else. Spreading things out is important and to mitigate damage done by a single attack.

A repeated issue I deal with on all game modes, I always tell the squad leader "build you mortars off the FOB, far enough counter mortars don't damage the FOB"... Blatent refusals, blatently ignoring me placing the mortars right up against the FOB. Its like are people that lazy in a video game to walk 100-200 meters?

Even the transport squads, they need to know for building mortars to drop supplies away from the FOB. So that way, lazy impatient squad leaders who don't want to wait for a propper crate drop for mortars away from the FOB don't say "I would build mortars further but he dropped all the crates right next to the FOB.

Leads me into the next issue, transport pilots or logi drivers dropping all the supplies in the same location everytime. FOB need a crate pile, mortars need a crate pile, AA, TOW and HMG needs at least one crate next to it. Back to spreading things out for artillery, if you put all your crates in one spot, you can lose them all.

Even as I say "Tell your pilots spread the crates out, crate spot for the mortars, FOB, HMG" and they ignore and just pile every single crate up in one spot. The past few months, I have seen transport pilots dropping too close to infantry, landing on them, dropping crates on them. As if they are trying to TK and troll.

Safety first, in everything. Think please.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHP-MFqXgFg&t=1319s