Project Reality Forums

Mostacho wrote:Yeah bro , it is not bro

bro these suckers keep complaining bro, so annoying bro

The game is more realistic now bro, these noobs cant handle reality bro, also the name of the game is reality bro lolzsss lolsz XD

i think US in the game should have twice as much airplanes and helicopters, tanks and apcs, and also nuclear bombs than any other faction in every map, because they do have IRL, bro
these noobz cant handle reality go play barbie bro lolz lolz XD XD Play Free Barbie Games Online - 4J.Com

These changes do not affect me bro because i always shot the in head. bro, never missed a shot bro lolzs lolzs also i never get hit bro, so doenst mather bro, let these noobs ***** bro lolzs haha XD XD

bro h4t3rs gonn4 h4t3 i guess bro lolz XD XD

I haven't posted in here yet because while I do think things went a bit far, I'm also waiting to play more and try it out. First impressions are shotguns and pistol/9mm cartridges got needed to hard, even against unarmoured targets. Maybe go back to the oldish stats with a massive drop off. 7.62 oneshotting non armoured targets really does hurt balance, maybe artificially change it to make it so you basically need to patch right away or you die.

You on the otherhand are a waste of space on the forum... please delete your post and post something arguing one side or the other. We get it, you and others love the drama and care about it more than the game, but stop wasting my reading time with it.

chrisweb89 wrote: First impressions are shotguns and pistol/9mm cartridges got needed to hard, even against unarmoured targets. Maybe go back to the oldish stats with a massive drop off. 7.62 oneshotting non armoured targets really does hurt balance, maybe artificially change it to make it so you basically need to patch right away or you die.

I agree with this, pretty much my opinion. 7.62 against upper legs shouldnt one-shot you either, just make you black and white or something. Otherwise I think the update is going to the right direction, I like the dmg loss over distance etc.

chrisweb89 wrote: You on the otherhand are a waste of space on the forum... please delete your post and post something arguing one side or the other. We get it, you and others love the drama and care about it more than the game, but stop wasting my reading time with it.

Well i did argued, made some good points actually, if you can read my other posts you will be able to see this, in fact i already pointed the same things you did

It was only a little joke, based on the insistence of the arguments i have been reading on here to show how absurd they are,i guess it took it to far, i'm sorry if I hurt anyone feelings.

If jokes arent acceptable, calling other people a "waste of space" should not be too.

In fact, 5.56 causes more damage than 7.62x39 and has similar damage to 7.62x51, because insurgents do not have a vest and blufor does. Look at the table the DEV posted....

Before this update it was the same, insurgents needed to hit body armour 3x with their AKs and US needed to hit unarmored insurgents only 2x with their AR 15 rifles. So what's your point?

Yes, since the update AR 15 pack a bigger punch close range, but so does AK and all the other weapons.
That was a key feature, making weapons more powerful close range, but also having them have way less KE at longer ranges.

That is, you have a weapon that does similar/more damage, has less recoil, is more accurate, has an optical sight, has a larger capacity, carries more ammunition, and generally has a higher rate of fire and is easier to control.

So exactly the same as before the update?

That at the hand of all infantry do not forget the armored vehicles, reconnaissance UAV, and automatic machineguns in .308 that kills in one hit, vests that reduce all other guns dmg etc..

Don't omit that INS is not supposed to be a gamemode where everything is balanced symmetrically.
In a normal match US is supposed to be dominating in 1v1 open combat, having the better equipment, while the INS are supposed to use ambush tactics. Keep swarming the caches, setting up inside buildings while hiding, covering entrances and utilizing wave attacks. That's why the INS don't have tickets! So they are free to do unusual or risky stuff to counter the better equipment and don't have to worry about their K/D ratio! The objective is the security of the caches, not the security of the insurgents! Don't expect the insurgent to have an equal or better K/D ratio than the regular force.

Also since you mentioned the higher caliber machine guns, the insurgents get way more of those and more high caliber rifles in general. If anyone has access to those one shot guns it are the insurgents.
And to get around the body armour people can aim for the upper legs if they are exposed, it is a legitimate tactic and not as ridiculous as it is made out to be by some people.

And what did you do before anyway, use MP5 as MEC (oh wait you never actually played inf)?

I play enough infantry, thanks.

But wait, M16 is capable of 2 shotting way further than the AK or SKS. What a great job. A rifle that shoots much faster and has almost no recoil is better than a semi auto rifle in every situation possible. What a great joke.

That's because that particular projectile retains KE better over distance than the other less streamlined projectiles.

About the SKS: It is more accurate and has higher dmg at close range, so it has some advantages. But it was not a popular weapon before anyway, for pretty much the same reasons you gave.

DogACTUAL wrote:Before this update it was the same, insurgents needed to hit body armour 3x with their AKs and US needed to hit unarmored insurgents only 2x with their AR 15 rifles. So what's your point?

So exactly the same as before the update?

As you said yourself....

DogACTUAL wrote:
In my opinion it made the battle rifles worth using, before the dmg was not good enough to compensate for the great recoil and bad full auto control.

body armour actually plays a noticable role now. As it should considering we are dealing with proper plate carriers here.

Now shots to kill are significantly different depending on if the target has body armour or not.

The blufor team always had an advantage, the change only made these advantages even more Highlighted, to a point were is just unfair. mainly because the ins team takes more dmg from every other weapon at the same time the blufor takes less

So the problem is the plate, as i already said, 5.56 causes more damage than 7.62x39 and has similar damage to 7.62x51, because insurgents do not have a vest and blufor does. Look at the table the DEV posted again....

To the INS team there is only drawbacks....

On maps were both team have plates, i just did not liked the gameplay, it favored some teams in some maps, bud it was nothing tendentious

Bud for the insurgency mode, the patch favored the blufor team too much

before you could use ambush tactics, keep swarming the caches, setting up inside buildings while hiding, covering entrances and utilizing wave attacks,just like you said, bud now it is not enough

DogACTUAL wrote:That's because that particular projectile retains KE better over distance than the other less streamlined projectiles.

Yeah nobody gives a shit. In the end it fires faster, has less recoil and does more damage at range.

DogACTUAL wrote:About the SKS: It is more accurate and has higher dmg at close range, so it has some advantages. But it was not a popular weapon before anyway, for pretty much the same reasons you gave.

It's still a 2 shot kill weapon that is not automatic and much harder to get follow up shots + more limited ammo. That vs a 2 and 1 shot auto rifle

DogACTUAL wrote: About the SKS: It is more accurate and has higher dmg at close range, so it has some advantages. But it was not a popular weapon before anyway, for pretty much the same reasons you gave.

What do you mean with more accurate? The buffs for SKS are useless you will almost never be able to shoot people on long distances with it..

As you said yourself....

Do you know the difference between a 'battle rifle' and an 'assault rifle'?
I meant the difference between body armour or not is actually more noticable when shot at with battle rifles, shotguns, pistols and SMGs, since the shots to kill are way different now with those, depending on if the targets has body armour or not (at close range).

Shots to kill when the target has body armour or not didn't change for the assault rifle cartridges at all, it is still 3x with BA and 2x without BA (at close range).

Since BLUFOR largely uses assault rifle cartridges, gameplay wise there is largely no difference other than the projectiles hit heavier at close range, but so do the insurgents' weapons now.

If you look closely the insurgents actually gained an advantage. BLUFOR camping with their optics and shooting the insurgents from far away, something that people used to complain very much about, isn't as effective anymore, is it?
Because the KE drops rapidly with the distance now, getting hit by long range shots is not really such a big concern anymore, which forces the regular forces to get closer, where the insurgents excel.

If you still think the insurgents have it unfair, there are other ways to balance, since it is not a symmetrical game mode anyway. For example you could give the insurgents more marskman and machine gunner kits, maybe even as spawnable kits, or better AT kits.

It's still a 2 shot kill weapon that is not automatic and much harder to get follow up shots + more limited ammo. That vs a 2 and 1 shot auto rifle

What do you mean with more accurate? The buffs for SKS are useless you will almost never be able to shoot people on long distances with it..

The SKS sucks like it always did the last few patches, what else is new?
That's the whole point i was trying to make.

DogACTUAL wrote:
If you look closely the insurgents actually gained an advantage. BLUFOR camping with their optics and shooting the insurgents from far away, something that people used to complain very much about, isn't as effective anymore, is it?
Because the KE drops rapidly with the distance now, getting hit by long range shots is not really such a big concern anymore, which forces the regular forces to get closer, where the insurgents excel.

That's the whole point i was trying to make.

Idk, maybe not, if the server you play at people are used to sit at freaking 400-600m to shoot, bud i highly doubt it

Here the exchanges usually take place at about 0-300m, and at least for me past 50m the scope starts to make a huge difference, that is were blufor shines

So it continues to be two shots to kill, but before as an insurgent you could still use a patch to heal and even stop bleeding if it took 1 shot, now you get so fucked up that you can not do almost anything to fight back

Rifles are so deadly now that you are able to lock down a whole street with almost any kit as blufor

For the 3rd and last time, the damage is the ins can do is LESS at most SIMILAR, NOT MORE, that at ANY RANGE. so there is no advantage whatsoever,

I've read through both this and the Dev blog post.

I have yet to see what the desired intent was from the DEV team.

What was the intention of this change?

What areas of gameplay have been "fixed" with this change?

Did the changes meet the DEV teams intentions?

These are important questions in my mind. They will help us, the lowly PR players, better provide feedback based on the intent of this patch.

Thanks in advance for the response.

Portable.Cougar wrote:I've read through both this and the Dev blog post.

I have yet to see what the desired intent was from the DEV team.

What was the intention of this change?

What areas of gameplay have been "fixed" with this change?

Did the changes meet the DEV teams intentions?

These are important questions in my mind. They will help us, the lowly PR players, better provide feedback based on the intent of this patch.

Thanks in advance for the response.

Yes this!

One of the first changes made to BF2 with PR mini-mod v0.1 was to increase weapon damage. The effect made PR brutal, and more deadly. It forced players to really think about crossing an open road. The change made gameplay more realistic. The reason we have been playing PR for more than a decade and still love to play it is because it forces realistic gameplay. PR forces us to think, communicate, and act as a team to win. That is the spirit of PR.
.
This patch makes gameplay unrealistic and unbalanced. Standard rifles are ineffective at medium and long ranges, movement is restricted because of the return of 1 hit incapacitations, and certain factions are seriously unbalanced.

This patch does make ballistics more realistic on paper, but It does so by making terminal ballistics more unrealistic in outcome. We appreciate the work done by the Devs in adding new content to the game. Damage drop off at range might be a good idea, but we believe that there are unintended consequences of the change to infantry weapons damage as implemented.

1.4.8 Forces Unrealistic Gameplay

Before this patch, with an M4, or an AK74, or an AK47 one could effectively incapacitate an enemy player wearing body armor. In 1.4.8 the player cannot do this; because they must make 4 hits to the chest at 300m, on a moving target, in a few seconds.

With this patch, we no longer have to think before crossing a road. The danger is gone at medium ranges.

There is one exception to this for small arms in the machine gun and other 7.62x51mm weapons. So, all a squad need do is make sure there is not a machine gun. If there is no machine gun, the squad can have a leisurely stroll across whatever distant open field or road or river they wish. Each player absorbing three bullets or more as they do. At a minimum, any player in this patch can usually get to cover before being hit by round 4. The game is now less about fire and move, and more about knowing how far the enemy is and counting how many times you have been shot.

In effect, any enemy that shoots at the squad at distance with a standard rifle is ineffective, and only reveals their position. So, no intelligent player with a standard weapon will shoot at distance. There is a mantra we use when we squad lead ”Don’t shoot at it if you can’t kill or suppress it”. We are now in the position of telling everyone not to shoot. The unrealism of a rifle being ineffective at 300m, or even 600m, should be obvious.

At long range, the numbers speak for themselves. Every standard issue rifle takes 5 or more shots to incapacitate an armored player in the chest at 600m. Russia’s standard rifle takes 11 shots. At long range, standard rifles are completely ineffective. Unless you have a G3, which maintains pre-patch damage values with the 7.62x51mm round, except at close range which is 1 hit to incapacitate to the pelvis and unarmored torso.

While most long range engagements are made ineffective using standard rifles, 7.62x51 damage values make most engagements too deadly. One hit kills to the pelvis and unarmored targets makes movement ineffective, because a player will use the advantage of 7.62x51 and stay in one place, waiting for the 1 hit kill opportunity. The player without the advantage of 7.62x51 damage values will not move at all when threatened by it. We witnessed this happen last time 1 hit kills were possible with headshots. It drastically changed gameplay for the worse. This patch has simultaneously made long range fire mostly ineffective, and movement to contact ineffective.

1.4.8 is Unbalanced

The MEC standard rifle vs the NATO standard rifle is the starkest example of this patch making PR unbalanced. Kashan is one of the oldest maps still on rotation, and still very popular. On Kashan, at any range, the G3 does more damage. At 50m, 2 shots to the chest incapacitate vs. 3 shots from the M16. At 300m, 2 shots vs 4. At 600m, 4 shots vs 7 from the M16. Any discussion of rate of fire or recoil seems to us to be a non-argument given these numbers, but some think it is a good argument, so we will address it.

On Kashan engagements occur between the bunkers, and from the bunkers to the mountains, so always more than 300m. A BLUFOR rifleman at north bunkers must hit a MEC rifleman on south bunkers 4x in the chest to incapacitate him, while the MEC rifleman needs 2 hits only. More importantly than unbalancing damage, this allows mec an unfair advantage in their freedom of movement from cover to cover. Movement and fire are the cornerstone of infantry combat in PR.

Unarmored targets are even more unbalanced. Again, the numbers speak for themselves, but for effect: On Sbeneh, a G3 1 shot incap to chest at 50m vs AK47s 2 shots; 2 shots at 300m vs 4 shots (or if the unarmored player has 10% damage from a fall, 1 shot incap from G3 at 300m); and 2 shots to kill at 600m. The rebel rifleman would have to hit the MEC player 10 times to incap at 600m.

RU vs NATO and RU vs IDF are the only maps balanced in this patch, given the relative similarities in damage values between 5.56x45 and 5.45x39. Devs should play closer attention to these maps. Clearly MEC and unarmored faction maps are unbalanced.

Recommendations

Change the damage values back to the old incapacitate values. 1.4.8 infantry damage changes are not just a content update, they are a gameplay and balance change, and should be treated as such. Neither gameplay or balance needed drastic fixing before.

PR is realism in gameplay, not in detail. 1.4.8 has made gameplay unrealistic and unbalanced.

That said, If you will not roll back the changes entirely, we suggest that you make the following adjustments:

Changes that make standard rifles slightly less effective at longer range is a gameplay change that may have positive effects on gameplay realism. It must however be balanced between factions, and if damages at longer ranges are left as drastically low as they are in 1.4.8, gameplay will remain unrealistic as detailed in this post.


Dmg suggested for all standard Rifles, Squad MGs, and Marksman:

Minimum 2 hits to incap at any range.
Maximum 2 hits at 50m.
Maximum 3 hits at 300m.
Maximum 4 hits at 600m.

Summary

This patch misunderstands the spirit and intent of Project Reality. PR is and has always been about Reality in effect and gameplay. This patch is reality in detail and on paper.

1.4.8 has made PR unrealistic and unbalanced.

Please:

Decrease all damage values drastically for 7.62x51 in standard rifles (G3, FAL, M14).
Remove the one shot incapacitate for all weapons (except possibly sniper rifles).
Increase damage for 5.45x39, 5.56x45, and 7.62x39, especially at range.
Increase damage for pistol and SMG rounds at close range.
Increase damage for buckshot at close range.

Thank you,

A bunch of guys still waiting for Fast Ropes.

First, let me say great work on everything that is being done. Allot of hard work throughout pr since 0.97, and even before then.

PPPPLLLLLZZZZZZ go back to old bullet damage before this latest patch it's not my fault new players can't take good use of cover and move tactically. isn't that the whole point of pr is that you want to avoid being shot and thusly killed.

if you want an in-depth explanation for why you should change back please read.


I'm so confused by some of these comments about one shot kills being a bad thing... has anyone here ever been shot??? Even if you aren't killed more than likely you are not going to like it and will at the very least fall down in pain and become less of if not a threat at all... at least for a moment. (mmmeeeeeeeedddddiiiiicccc!!!!!)

so far I've experienced numerous instances where I have acquired multiple hits on the enemy and they still kill me with one shot.... this is possible in real life i know, but when it happens over and over it becomes annoying and frankly I have been playing pr since 0.97 but now I'm thinking of not playing anymore.


this is just my humble players point of view/opinion but since I started with bf1942

then played:

bf1942 mod: Desert Combat (i miss it)

bf vietnam

bf2

then project reality since v0.97

I have been playing for a long time and consider myself a professional at playing pr tactically.

this latest patch that nerfs bullets not only takes tactics out of the game, it just makes it less fun when your taking your time to get a kill and even when you get that shot it does nothing and a simple patch can heal the guy right up for him to come back and kill you

now its no longer project reality


its more like project frustration and I'm scream ugggghhhhh i miss the days when tactics won out over headshots.....the old system wasn't bad at all.

I wounded enemy before when trying to kill them and I was okay with that but a shot to the chest/body or head should be an instant kill since there is no way in this game to shoot someone in the leg and incapacitate them (make them fall down) it should be a kill shot especially at least two shots to the body with ak-47 or m16. yesterday i should a mec in the back with m16 50m away twice and he kept running (I know I shot him because I saw blood spurts and he groaned)

in closing, I'm just merely trying to say if I spend 20 minutes to 30 minutes of a match sneaking around moving from cover to cover and working as a squad I should be able to get that kill when I see I've hit my mark with that patiently taken shot. im not saying make it instant death every time you get hit but go back to the old system it was better these guys saying they like it this way better are just tired of dying from running through the open or dashing straight into the kill zone and getting frustrated that they are good at call of duty but not this game lol

oh, one more point if you do some research 7.62 will travel through your body whereas a .223 or 5.56 round will tumble through cause more damage it's proven in a real statistic that both are deadly just in different ways. so caliber only matters with material penetration. I understand body armor and how it works but even a ceramic plate can handle only one shot.

Portable.Cougar wrote: -snip-

"muh realism, I hate realism. PR is about realism, But change it unrealistically like this so all the guns do the same amount damage"

I've still yet to see anyone come up with any evidence that shows x round does y damage outside of what Zwilling has done.

FFG wrote:"muh realism, I hate realism. PR is about realism, But change it unrealistically like this so all the guns do the same amount damage"

Your debating skills are truly something to behold, FFG.

Jaymz wrote:Your debating skills are truly something to behold, FFG.

Yeah, TL;DR'n ya mates post for the other people who can't be fucked reading is important.

OriginalWarrior wrote:Also, Where are the testers? There is way too much oversight on these drastic gameplay changes.

If it works and doesn't crash the game, it's tested. Testers don't do game design, just make sure it works (sometimes).