[Gameplay] Deviation modifications

[Teek]

Just got back from a long ban.....and now I see that deviation is going to be made worse....not better?

Increasing settle-time from two and change to SIX SECONDS??? This is a joke...right? I mean c'mon...

READ THE FING THREAD!

*Rationale behind that is that if the target is only half that distance away, you'll only half to wait half the time. Believe me when I say 90% of standard PR engagements are under 250m.

it will take 3.3 seconds for a perfect hit at 125m, with one shot every 1.25 seconds.

to hit something perfectly @ 50m it will only take 1.2 seconds, @ 100m, it takes 2.6 seconds.
When you are moving and see someone, if you want to get a hit, you are going to take 2 seconds to aim anyways and takes even longer to line up a shot at longer distances as well, so it should play into the hands of most players.

[MAINERROR]

OMG guys. Could you please just stop posting such stuff? You did it aftr .8 release and you do it again now before 0.85, where nearly no one of you tested the deviation.

I seriously think that such status reports should get closed immediatly when the are posted to prevent so called wanna-be professionals to get such a super stupid discussion starter before they have even tested it ...

[Zantalos]

With the values above, if he's 150m away and you're crouched and have settles for 5 seconds that's a definite hit.

1.3 meters means you'll miss by like 3 feet right??

[Jaymz]

1.3 meters means you'll miss by like 3 feet right??

1.3 meters if they're 250m out. I said 150m and five seconds will give you a hit, which it correct.

[cyberzomby]

...

Nice research and looks about right to me Its a standing shot in a hot zone. So ofcourse theres going to be some deviation. 250 m is far away! Good to see that for once so I can guess my ranges better! I usually say 20 meters to that car in front of you! Guess im off by a long shot!

[Agent KillaDUCE]

I think it sounds pretty good. Of course, I can't support anything until I've tried it out.

[Big Lebowski]

from my understanding it is:
1... 2... 5...
NO WAIT 3...

BANG... BANG... BANG...

not 3 sec between shots- just moving. and yes its realistic. some people can pop accurate shots of at 250ms easy and accurately - but most take a second or two to make sure the shot is lined up.

Again, the problem is not the time but the fact that you have no indicator, unlesss you count and then still you can only roughly guess.

And I still dont see counting as anymore realistic than to a visible indicator.

[OkitaMakoto]

At the risk of trolling:

Its honestly not that hard to accurately count to 2 or 6

[Big Lebowski]

thank you for you insightful answer...

[OkitaMakoto]

thank you for you insightful answer...

It wasnt so much an insightful answer as much as it was a "sure itd be nice to have weapon sway to REALLY know when you should fire, but is it really all that hard to count in your head?"

Trust me, I agree itd be great to have a better system, but after playing with deviation in the game you start to get a feel for it and know when you can effectively shoot even without counting, do you not?

Sure, a moving crosshair like the HAT hud has could probably be done but its not terrible needed for small arms [imho] and would add [what I consider useless clutter to the HUD

[gazzthompson]

Trust me, I agree itd be great to have a better system, but after playing with deviation in the game you start to get a feel for it and know when you can effectively shoot even without counting, do you not?

QFT ^^^ you just "know" when to shoot after a while

[Tirak]

DMR

Changes

1. Significantly improved accuracy allowing for DM rifles to engage targets up to and including 600m.

2. Increased settle time required (for maximum accuracy) after each shot from 1 second to 4.5 seconds

3. Increased settle time required (for maximum accuracy) after moving from 2.5 seconds to 5 seconds

4. Increased maximum cone of fire from moving

Okay, little clairification if you don't mind.

The Settle for Maximum range after each shot has been increased, now is this for high accuracy at 600 meters?

Are the settle times for the DMR and Assault Rifles comparable at Assault Rifle intended ranges, and we've only got to worry about the really long zero in times if we're shooting really far?

Is the max deviation small enough to engage targets at 600 meters?

Does this mean the DMR will finally fill its role in the squad instead of just being a RoF impaired AR?

[fuelen]

geez even though im a diehard medic i cant wait to try out the sniper looks like it might require minimal brain power so um thats a toughie

[Jaymz]

Are the settle times for the DMR and Assault Rifles comparable at Assault Rifle intended ranges, and we've only got to worry about the really long zero in times if we're shooting really far?

It's a different system than the AR's. But yes, full settle time is required for engaging targets @ 600m only. If they're 200m away, you won't need to wait that long.

Is the max deviation small enough to engage targets at 600 meters?

I think you mean "min" deviation which is the deviation you'll have after the full settle time. If so, yes, you'll be able to engage targets up to 600m.

Does this mean the DMR will finally fill its role in the squad instead of just being a RoF impaired AR?

That's the idea.

[D4rk_l0rdBR]

0.8 deviation reaches its minimum after 2.5 seconds of settle time. Your maximum accuracy @ 250m would be,

Stand = 0.9m
Crouch = 0.7m
Prone = 0.7m

The changes posted reach minimum after 6.6 seconds of settle time. Your maximum accuracy @ 250m would be,

Stand = 0.7m
Crouch = 0.5m
Prone = 0.4m

Well i like the new accurate shots, but 6.6 seconds i think its too much... i dont know about the reality but i think 6.6 seconds its too much time to aim... perhaps 3.3 seconds or 3.9 seconds would be sufficient

[Jaymz]

Full six seconds is only required if they're 250m out.

[random pants]

I can make a sandwich and eat it in 6 seconds....

I can shoulder my .223 ar-15 and accurately engage targets at 250 meters in under 3 seconds easily....think about it....(quickly shoulders rifle)...ONE.........TWO.......TH-BANG!!!! not that hard, really...

Are we playing as trained soldiers anymore? Man I miss when the person who was the better shot won, now it's "the person who instaprones, camps and has his settletime waited out wins."

And the brilliant people who say don't complain about it before you try it....

If I told you that my car could run a quarter mile in 12 seconds, you could say that its a fast car without actually driving it....right?

Then how are our opinions on the deviation not qualified when we already know all the deviation values and settle-times prior to the release?

Yea, DON'T JUDGE IT IF YOU HAVN'T TRIED IT!!! (but we'll give you all the specs of exactly how it will work so you know every single value, thus giving you a perfect idea of the deviation in theory, but you can't possibly have an idea how it REALLY works, even though you already do...because we told you....)


Give me a break....

[KP]

Random pants, I'll give you the age-old question: can you do that after jogging a mile in full combat gear and while taking fire? So far, the answer has been "no" by everyone, even trained soldiers.

Remember that theory and practice are always different. Older versions may have been more accurate to what you like, but they played as point-and-click spamfests where instaproning headshots at 300 metres were the norm, instead of extended firefights.

Ease up on the sarcasm as well, please.

[Jaymz]

I can shoulder my .223 ar-15 and accurately engage targets at 250 meters in under 3 seconds easily....think about it....(quickly shoulders rifle)...ONE.........TWO.......TH-BANG!!!! not that hard, really...

I'm assuming since you're so confident about that, that you've put multiple rounds down range with an AR-15. So you'll know that the the BF2 engine doesn't simulate weapon handling and ballistics in a way that's close to real life. You say you miss when the person "with the best shot" won. You must mean when the person with the fastest twitch reflexes that put his mouse on a soldiers head won?

You need to realise just how stupid it is to try put absolute realism into an engine that was made for arcade gameplay. Tell me, since when did the BF2 engine have...

1. A sway system designed around each and every stance.

2. A sighting system that doesn't mechanically attach your rifle to your cheek and perfectly stabilize itself while allowing you to rotate 180-360 degrees in a matter of milliseconds. Even while you're prone! Segue to point 3...

3. 1st person movement animations for all stances.

4. A stamina system that effects accuracy.

5. A realistic ballistics model where the travel path of a rifle round is not a straight line.

6. A system where a soldiers weapon isn't always in the hip/ready position.

Are we playing as trained soldiers anymore?

You're playing as a soldier. Setting deviation like this means you train yourself how to use it. I've never put rounds down range with a 4x optical sight before, but I've had a 101st airborne Designated Marksman* tell me it would take him about eight seconds to hit a head sized target 300m away using an ACOG. If you downscale that to the BF2 engine and make things relatively realistic without ruining teamwork, then you'll end up with the deviation system this thread is all about.

*Don't get the idea I only consulted one soldier. I've consulted several, let alone the several others that Wolfe spoke to while coding the 0.8 deviation.

[Celestial1]

People seem to have this fascination with their aim being balls-all with rifles.

Now, try hitting that same target while taking fire, hearing fire, and just overall exhausted, and add in some heat-sweat. You're not going to be accurate. It's not that you are just bad at aiming, it's that it's very HARD to aim in those conditions, not to mention that you don't want to be shot (a thing that is very, very emphasized in v0.8 that no one seems to bother realising).

Now, while we can't make you want to just keep your head down the entire game, the DEVs sure can make it hard for you to stand in the open the entire game.

Honestly, the majority people complaining about deviation are accustomed to v0.75's twitch fire style, or a select few who were accustomed to v0.6's. v0.8 is a completely new animal; While the deviation has it's problems currently, it'll be refined to perfection and beyond with Jaymz's help.

Remember, you complain about not being able to hit something 100m away now... when you could hit something 600m away in previous versions (No exaggerations here. Drop and lead accounted for, it was previously only moderately hard to land a shot at fierce distances).