Infantry weapon damage changes

[FFG]

I've been having a blast destroying kids today.I think the changes to 7.62 vs 55.6 combat is pretty dank. Im sure Ban will be upset his crosshair shotgun got nerfed. But overall been pretty fun and seemingly fair. I didn't lose a fight thinking, If only I had a higher fire rate gun.

One thing I did notice is that Shotguns seemed to take alot more shots to kill crates and pop locks. On multiple occasions with the 590 on kokan today did it take me 7 shots to open a gate.

[inb4banned]

Al basrah gameplay is broken

Asad khal gameplay is broken

bayam gameplay is broken

falluhja gameplay is broken

gaza gameplay is broken

fools road gameplay is broken

karbala gameplay is broken

Op archer gameplay is off chart broken

mestia gameplay is broken

Ramiel gameplay is broken

General maps gameplay is worst

+ all the Vietnam maps. This was ok before, but could be made better (on Vietnam maps).

How it should work for good gameplay balance on Vietnam maps: torso shots to kill at 50m:
Mosin 1
M14 2
SKS 2
AK 2
RPK 2
M60 2
M16 3
PPSH 3

Damage dropoff should make Mosin 1 shot range almost unlimited, M16 3 shot range would be pretty limited but not nearly as mush as PPSH. SKS and M14 would still be good at ranges, AK would fall behind.

Similarly you could balance 900RPM rifles with bigger damage dropoff.

This kind of balancing would differentiate the weapons more and make it more interesting. What we have now is some half assed system that breaks the balance and ruins maps for the sake of faux realism.

[YAK-R]

sbeneh is particularly rough too

[Chuva_RD]

Just tested, lower legs and body armor have same armor coefficient; tested on russians on Grozny; sure about SVD, Mosin, Ak74M, AKM, PKT, Mosin gangster edition, Simonov

Bayonet of Ak74m deal 9 HP if stab to lower legs, 78 HP against hands, from 22.5HP to 27 HP against boots with decreasing distance, do from 8 HP to 20 HP against knees of laying man with half of it not being registered, could do dead-dead or dead of -180HP or -100.5HP if stab to body armor.

I'm wondering how a knife can penetrate armor of 3rd or 4th class of protection where besides kevlar it have 3-5mm plates; looks like Ka-Bar can't penetrate for more than 2cm of kevlar/2nd class of protection (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q8p6DfxaGE). This is not median for all knifes of course but a good example of wide-spreaded knife's performance.

Buckshots is pure random, if specialist aim for upper half of body he could deal damage from 40 to 80 HP; if he aim at lower half and legs he deal up to 40 HP in mean. Shots in body armor from 1 step do stable loss of 35 or 40 HP, do not remember how many exactly. Shots in torso and limbs do less damage than shots to body armor. I doubt this should be so, IMO buckshots should make people dead after torso shots.

Chinese rifles best in the game, chinese crewman is the best PDW and probably the best CQB weapon in game.

Pistols can't headshot.

[LimitJK]

higher damage on (assault-)rifles is justified for the sake of realism, as long as it doesnt break gameplay.
keep in mind that getting downed doesnt equal death, but being wounded and unable to fight which is usually the case when you get hit in RL.
i hope the damage dropoff on range against unarmored bodyparts doesnt get exaggerated as being hit should still have a significant impact on the soldiers ability to fight. it doesnt make sense to have a soldier be temporaly impaired (as reflected in the state of wounded) just after he is riddled with bulletholes (4+ shots).

pistol damage against unarmored bodyparts should not be too low either. 2 hits close range are more than enough to impair a soldier, and put him into a state of being wounded.

one possible balance tweak for bolt action rifles against unarmored upper body areas would be to make it an insta dead-dead kill, or let it penetrate bodyarmor.

shotguns are currently too weak, doesnt justify its use when you need 3 point blank shots to kill an enemy.


question about the armor areas: does the upper torso area on regular forces consist of one armor material, or are there weakspots at the sides (below the arms), as there should be a reduced level of protection in RL too.
could you make the damage materials on the sodier models public?


and as mentioned before, this update enhances the lack of balancing on high firerate rifles.

[sweedensniiperr]

But wait, I thought the RPM of guns and only RPM make guns OP...

[operativac]

I guess the DEVs secretly want us to shoot people in the ****?

[X-Alt]

FAL and G3 got a much needed buff. Great time with the 7.62x51 death squads in INS now.


But please make Sbeneh immersive.

[DogACTUAL]

But wait, I thought the RPM of guns and only RPM make guns OP...

Welcome to the nerfers' circlejerk...

[Vista]

But wait, I thought the RPM of guns and only RPM make guns OP...

Not really, DEVs have demonstrated that you can also make OP guns by increasing their bullet damage.

So instead of nerfing the Bullet vomit guns, let's make their opposite as OP now, so now you can experience true realism by dying in 0.3s after seeing the enemy. Good stuff!

[Frontliner]

I've made a statement on the devblog page already, but kept it short seeing as the change was imminent(in contrast to the armour one). I haven't played that many rounds yet, but something did feel... off in terms of infantry fights due to the damage change.

My biggest concern with the damage system is the fact that it is both too deadly and not deadly enough for my liking, bare with me for a second there. Zwilling said what pushed him to do the change was that he felt that 7.62 didn't offer any real advantages over 5.56, a valid concern, but the update did nothing to address that but add a silly one-hit-kill zone for 7.62 to shoot at whilst enabling 7.62R and 5.56 to still two-hit in every body part up to 40m away(50m for 7.62R) considering how long it takes to take out a patch, apply it and receive the recovery. This will lead to a plethora of situations in which both combattants knock each other out "simultaneously", this has happened before but is a rather rare occurence. What drives me to say that this is too deadly is that a central piece of PR's gameplay has been the medic system, Zwilling thinks that causes people to act more careful, while my impression is that if I don't get killed in 2 bullets every time, I'll be sure to get myself patched back up to full because chances are that I'll be able to survive one more bullet the more HP I have. If a 7.62 two-shots me everywhere on ranges up to 350m then what's the point of having a medic or healing myself? It might seem paradox, but a medic is less valuable the deadlier the weapons.

On the flipside(why the damage isn't enough) we have first of all all those guns firing pistol calibers which were being made useless through this change to the point you wouldn't even want to have us try these out on regular kits. And seeing the chart I can understand why: A 9mm round is a 6(SIX!)-hit kill on an opponent a mere 50ms away! In the most optimal portion of the body, the upper legs! The lower legs and arms? A 7-hit kill. Torso? 8 hits. If we decrease the distance we end up at 4-5 hit kills, but wait, everything else two-shots us! So even in CQB(which we are supposed to excel at due to easier handling) we get curbstomped because the enemy needs half the bullets we do. Sidearms are completely useless, you might as well pull out the knife when the opponent is 30m away, far better chances to kill. And I'm only being slightly sarcastic here.
And it doesn't end there just yet, remember Falklands, remember Vietnam? The godlike PPSh is a 4-hit kill on the torso, while the M14 is a straight up oneshot. Sten and M3? Useless. And WW2 is going to end up just the same, the Kar98k is going to be much better than the Mp40, fucking LOL.

I have to ask you: Did honestly nobody think about this, as in the potential impact across theaters? Well Zwilling did "Remove M14 from the premises!"(but only if we deem it necessary I have a better idea. How about we think of the impact of our "realistic" change before we add it to the game and remove weapon diversity entirely? If you KNOW that a change is going to make an entire category of weapons useless, then maybe you shouldn't pitch it to us?

The second caliber that got "crapdated" is 5.45R. Everything past 150m is a 4-hit kill, but it's ok, we only sort of complained for 15 pages about 900 RPM v AK74M balance because that was close range. What better way to solve the issue by making the AK74M even worse?

[Bonecrusher76]

As a frequent and very good PR sniper, here are my thoughts. I am not at all happy with the changes, and don't believe they accurately reflect the real world.

The whole concept of this patch as it relates to snipers is totally unrealistic. In the real world a military sniper going against an armored force would use a .50BMG, .300 WIN MAG, and/or armor penetrating ammo sufficient to penetrate the armor. The real world motto is "one shot one kill" and real world snipers would take whatever steps necessary to make that happen. They aren't generally training modern snipers to aim for the legs (or head), they are giving them equipment and ammunition sufficient to deal with armor.

The problem of requiring multiple sniper hits in PR was extensively discussed in another post, and it lead to all the sniper rifles being buffed to a one-shot-kill a few patches ago. Requiring multiple shots makes the sniper totally useless (and unrealistic in purpose) in PR, as someone can take many many rounds by going to a medic and getting healed, which is itself totally unrealistic.

The way the dynamics are after this latest patch, a sniper can chest shot, player gets healed by medic, leg shot, healed by medic, leg shot, patched from crate, head shot, revived and healed by medic. How is that at all realistic?

I applaud you for trying to adjust damages and ranges etc to more accurately reflect the real world projectiles, but the snipers were fine, and I think these changes are very bad for the overall game play. Again, if the snipers were somehow overpowered (I don't think they were) the way to nerf them is by increasing skill cap (bullet rise and drop), not by making them require multiple hits which patches and medics can (unrealistically) heal away.

Also, the reality of plate armor (especially steel armor) is that it would stop multiple rated rounds, so from a strict realism perspective it should stop ALL 9mm rounds, ALL buckshot, and many machine gun bursts, as well as all underrated sniper chest shots. The round either penetrates and causes massive internal damage, or it doesn't penetrate and (might) cause bruising. This new damage system, especially as it relates to snipers, isn't realistic, and makes it like vanilla BF2. And btw, 5.56 actually penetrates armor substantially BETTER than 7.62 (look it up) so this is actually backwards in the game now, from a view of strict realism.

[DogACTUAL]

same cartridge, same damage = great, makes way more sense than before, plz keep that system no matter
what you change next (ofc account for different ammo types like AP and stuff and barrel length)


7.62 buff = great, finally incentive to use G3, well balanced against the AR 15 family and their ROF imo, also MMGs are supposed to be kick ***


buckshot and pistol/smg nerf =
(against unarmored opponent ofc, the values against body armour atm are justified imo)

are you kidding me?! you wanna tell me you can just shrug off a full load of buckshot center mass at close range and keep on walking?
i also wanna see you take 3x9mm to the chest and keep walking longer than a minute.

[shifty454]

i like the change, for people that have a problem with the pistols not killing anything sorry but i didnt have that problem yesterday still manage to get kills with it no problem (yes you can headshot with the pistol).

shotgun: like ffg said shotgun seems to take couple more shot to opens doors , etc so yeah i can understand that they seem weak i didnt use it that much but still used it against players and manage to do good with it.

SMG: didnt use any yet except the mp5 so i cant make a good opinion yet on the matter.

Lmao at people crying that every map is broken now, really . I really dont understand

[Jacksonez__]

-snip-

Would be hilarious if the snipers in real life were advised to shoot enemy in the legs because our ammunition isn't that good for bodyshots

IMO snipers should get that 1 shot bodyshot kill.

[Chuva_RD]

If you test it, you will find the shotgun is a one shot kill up close, and loses effectiveness as it goes down range, as it should.

Shotgunning from 1m to any point on body except head do not kill, tested today.

[Unarmed Civilian]

The new system seems fine. Now we need to take a step back and take away some of the scopes that were added. Like, why should medics be carrying scopes? They are supposed to play defensively, and in many situations the medic kit is the last one active in a downed Squad, and trust me, you won't wish for a scope in a door to door fight. Breachers, LATs, Medics, none of them need a scope. It woulld make gameplay better with less "riflemen snipers".

I never got why PR doesn't use the BF2 feature of allowing more than two (STD and ALT) kit selections on the spawning screen. You could have Iron Sight, Red Dot, ACOG, Reflex, etc.


Edit: The shotgun nerf indeed needs a fix. Last night I had to shoot an INS 3 times within 5 meters away. Only his chest and head were visible, he was behind a window.

[Frontliner]

First of all, research actual defesive encounters envolving 9mm and you will see the numbers you are complaining about are factual to real life statistics with the 9mm. So, good job DEVs!

I couldn't care less about real life. What I care about is that entire categories of weapons were turned into utter trash so much so that they didn't want us to know how badly the SMGs are now compared to everything else besides Shotguns and Pistols which are at the same level of suckiness.

Second, why the hell are you relying on the 9mm for CQB!? That is not for clearing a building!

Well, maybe it's the fact that a 9mm weapon is designed to be only good for close encounters and the update made 9mm totally pointless.

And of course a 9mm is designed to clear a building, the fact that armies don't clear buildings with 9mms anymore is that they are carrying assault rifles which do a good enough job at it while not sacrificing combat capabilities at 200m and beyond which most SMGs do due to their caliber.

MP5 stormstroopers were a cheesy strat, I'll give you that, but you wouldn't underestimate their capabilities in reality "just because it's only a 9mm weapon" if you had to go up against it. Reality aside, it's a game, I think weapon balance is more important and the update broke that.

BTW, a 9mm is not a 50 meter weapon...

No, you right, it's a cartridge, and there are plenty of 9mm weapons that can go more than double the distance with good enough precision.

[Rabbit]

Would be hilarious if the snipers in real life were advised to shoot enemy in the legs because our ammunition isn't that good for bodyshots

IMO snipers should get that 1 shot bodyshot kill.