All these changes to the AR kit yet no one seems to get it right

[Coalz101]

I think Smek forgot guns like MG3 deploy on thin air and this kinds of acts for a nerf. I shouldn't be one tapped because someone decided to prone behind a hill and deploy bipod and magically stand up with that bipod deployed in thin air and spray me accurately from over 300m. There's no tactical shooters, where you can accurately shoot an ar over 300m, there is no game this is possible in, not Squad, Insurgency, Arma 3 or any other game.
I think Smek just needs to play ALL the AR/MG kits in the game to understand that some weapons such as RPK actually benefit from this (Reduce deviation time but wider spread after few shots) in my opinion especially in a close range (50-150m) insurgency setting where you'd be on a roof shooting down at people (Potentially a full squad) trying to run up to the cache.

[Frontliner]

I'm going to be as cordial as I can given the passive-aggressive tone of your reply, Bastian.

Frontliner says he barely touched it, so it should essentially feel the same, right?

Smek was talking specifically about tap firing which are only dependant on the code lines I posted. None of these changed outside of the ADS modifier which I made better. To reiterate once again, this is not about how it feels(however well this can be perceived by a human is an entirely different story given that previously everybody would just shoot until the target is dead), this is a simple mathematical calculation which can have three outcomes:
1. worse than before(however small)
2. the very same as before
3. better than before

Add to that the fact that deviation settles way faster now, the only sensible conclusion that can be drawn is that the AR is even more broken now than before and it should be nerfed further accordingly, no?

Nobody was claiming that the additional firing inaccuracy was anything but a nerf. And on the flipside the reduced settle time and increased tap accuracy is most assuredly a buff.
Why are you putting words in my/our mouth?

I mean just look at Frontliners in game screenshot of the scoreboard where he gets 30 kills with it, disgusting and impressive! Can someone really tell me with a straight face that the AR isn't as good or even better than before with proof like that?

Just like the above, you're being dishonest about the point you're trying to make and I wonder why? Again, is lying something you would want me to do to you on the regular from now on? Is that how we're treating one another here?

And the community's feedback to the changes are the typical arrogant responses, like Smek, get this guy, he bases his opinion of how the AR performs now from playing the actual game with it, haha! Maybe he should try to play BF2Editor or Notepad instead, look at the numbers and see they are basically still the same and nothings changed much?

Considering Smek and I were playing yesterday I'm sure he knows that I'm not angry with him at all regardless of what his opinion is. Nor do I downplay/belittle his viewpoint. If that were the case, don't you think I wouldn't bother responding to him in earnest at all? After all this is my time off after work which I could be doing w/e. Needless to say I'm doing the same with regards to this attempt of yours at an argument as well. I'm neither scared nor offended by however mean you're trying to be, I'm judging your argumentation only - and so far I've yet to see anyone make a argument worth consideration.

And, as a fair bit of advice, let me just say that making passive-aggressive remarks and lying usually has the opposite effect of what you're trying to accomplish. You want something changed or altered? By all means, go ahead, convince me. But if you can't or won't do that, why not leave the discussion to others who are capable in doing so?

Adding overheating mechanic to AR is less worse than destroying/fucking AR deviation when firing at a moving target. For 50m+ moving targets, now you need pre aim 5s front of where the target gonna be and fire to MAYBE kill it (if the target does not go to a different direction).

Now a rifleman is more effective than AR for moving targets....

I have no idea where you're pulling this "5s(econds?!?)[in] front of the enemy" but considering that bullets in this game travel in excess of 800ms every second I can only guess that you're aiming way, wayyyy too far ahead at which point it's no wonder you're not hitting anything.
Even considering you're being wildly exaggerating with this claim then, this wouldn't be an issue with the added firing deviation but bullet travel speed which has remained unchanged for (I'd wager) a decade? - if not more. Complete bogus claim, stop wasting my time.

And yes, irl AR is one on the most OP weapon

I'm not going to debate IRL specs with someone who's never held a firearm before. Last time you were claiming machine gunners wouldn't ever stop firing because you somehow thought this would prove your argument - as if I needed more indications that your understanding of combat as a whole and firearms specifically is miniscule.

[Danesh_italiano]

I have no idea where you're pulling this "5s(econds?!?)[in] front of the enemy" but considering that bullets in this game travel in excess of 800ms every second I can only guess that you're aiming way, wayyyy too far ahead at which point it's no wonder you're not hitting anything.
Even considering you're being wildly exaggerating with this claim then, this wouldn't be an issue with the added firing deviation but bullet travel speed which has remained unchanged for (I'd wager) a decade? - if not more. Complete bogus claim, stop wasting my time.

Need to pre aim 3~5s on front of target because you need the deviation to be GONE before you fire + bullet travel time...

I'm not going to debate IRL specs with someone who's never held a firearm before. Last time you were claiming machine gunners wouldn't ever stop firing because you somehow thought this would prove your argument - as if I needed more indications that your understanding of combat as a whole and firearms specifically is miniscule.

I am not the gun guy (no rights/enough money to be) but in fact i have fired weapons from .22 up to 7.62 including a 7.62 weapon with bipod (but it was semi auto) and i managed to put 10 rounds on the chest from a 100m STATIC target firing super fast with ironsigh...

If i bring a video from someone firing ar with bipod and being reasonable accurate, would you revert deviation changes?!?!

--

Edit:
And you DEV/MODDER need to understand that players do not care and/or understand about numbers of settings, they just care about the final result ingame...

[Frontliner]

Need to pre aim 3~5s on front of target because you need the deviation to be GONE before you fire + bullet travel time...

I'll spare you the finer details and just say that you're completely wrong on this one. Part of the redesign was to mimic IRL stability improvements gained when deploying a weapon on its bipod.
Meaning you can follow the target without incurring massive deviation penalties since the effects of the TurnDeviation subsetting was highly decreased for deployed weapons. In addition, it decays after one second flat even if you reach the cap for the setting - which can only happen when having to shift your aim around completely or you aim wildly(and I mean WILDLY) through the air for a good second or two.

In other words, one of your two issues with the new deviation system is something you literally conjured out of nothing(or was actually made more favourable for the gunner, pick your poison), am I seeing that right? And you want me to take your feedback into consideration? I'm supposed to take you serious?

I am not the gun guy (no rights/enough money to be) but in fact i have fired weapons from .22 up to 7.62 including a 7.62 weapon with bipod (but it was semi auto) and i managed to put 10 rounds on the chest from a 100m STATIC target firing super fast with ironsigh...

Hey sure thing, I'm not an expert in firearms either, I'll happily take back that statement of you not having used one yourself.

If i bring a video from someone firing ar with bipod and being reasonable accurate, would you revert deviation changes?!?!

You forget that I have my own experiences to go back to if I need to consider how I want stuff to function to better mimic IRL specs. If you can find one that gives me the necessary details as in
-Point of Aim for each shot
-Point of Impact of each shot to be able to see how the recoil shifts Point of Impact to Point of Aim
-Suifficient target distance(300-400m)
-Long, continued firing
then that'd make it possible to calculate standard deviation, deviation increase per shot and finally the deviation cap.

I doubt this exists though since would be beyond tedious to do(especially point of aim to point of impact comparisons), but if you can find it - PMs are always open.

And you DEV/MODDER need to understand that players do not care and/or understand about numbers of settings, they just care about the final result ingame...

I'm playing the game too, you know? And I'm actually quite happy with the way it works right now.

[WingWalker]

If i bring a video from someone firing ar with bipod and being reasonable accurate, would you revert deviation changes?!?!

Does that video show the front sight bouncing around the target as the shooter fires?

Does that video show the range and the size of the target?

Does that video show how many rounds actually landed on a target?

Does the video show the maintenance history of the firearm being shot?

Does the video show the ballistics information of the round it fires?

Does the video show the training and experience of the shooter?

Does that video show if the target is moving, or is it stationary?

Does that video show the level of stress in the shooters head?

Does that video show the shooter in an awkward position he has to fire in?

Does that video show the target shooting back?


I believe Frontliner is trying to represent all of these things in the things he modifies, not just if any random noob can pick up the kit and instakill anyone around like an MGsniper.


Experience matters.


Please don't quote wikipiedia and videos as replacing real experience.


You don't know what you are talking about if you have never shot under stress. The stress changes everything.

[UncleSmek]

I think Smek forgot guns like MG3 deploy on thin air and this kinds of acts for a nerf. I shouldn't be one tapped because someone decided to prone behind a hill and deploy bipod and magically stand up with that bipod deployed in thin air and spray me accurately from over 300m. There's no tactical shooters, where you can accurately shoot an ar over 300m, there is no game this is possible in, not Squad, Insurgency, Arma 3 or any other game.
I think Smek just needs to play ALL the AR/MG kits in the game to understand that some weapons such as RPK actually benefit from this (Reduce deviation time but wider spread after few shots) in my opinion especially in a close range (50-150m) insurgency setting where you'd be on a roof shooting down at people (Potentially a full squad) trying to run up to the cache.

Man, are you kidding with me? I've played all the AR's since this patch came out, why do I feel like I need to prove it you?

Smek was talking specifically about tap firing which are only dependant on the code lines I posted. None of these changed outside of the ADS modifier which I made better. To reiterate once again, this is not about how it feels(however well this can be perceived by a human is an entirely different story given that previously everybody would just shoot until the target is dead), this is a simple mathematical calculation which can have three outcomes:
1. worse than before(however small)
2. the very same as before
3. better than before




I have no idea where you're pulling this "5s(econds?!?)[in] front of the enemy" but considering that bullets in this game travel in excess of 800ms every second I can only guess that you're aiming way, wayyyy too far ahead at which point it's no wonder you're not hitting anything.
Even considering you're being wildly exaggerating with this claim then, this wouldn't be an issue with the added firing deviation but bullet travel speed which has remained unchanged for (I'd wager) a decade? - if not more. Complete bogus claim, stop wasting my time.

About shooting 3-5 sec infront of the enemy is standard with the latest changes due to the fact that you cant hit a moving target you need to prefire into where he is moving and let him "walk into the fire" rather than tracing him. If you try to move the mouse with the target it just gets super inaccurate.

Also, claiming that you made something "better" while easily dismissing our opinion and concern is kind of a **** move.

[transpilot]

I think that the ar is still too op.
Make it less accurate and give more surpression effect.
Maybe add some imersion sounds

[WingWalker]

Now you have rendered the AR kit useless

So, out of curiosity I just tested the AR kit on Muttrah...


I was killing guys at 300m with one shot/burst. While standing. Even guys swimming in the water with just their heads at 250m...



So, WTF are you talking about?

Seems like you do not know what you are talking about.

You spliced two separate posts together?

Anyway, you're attempt at being cleaver and play "gotcha" actually proved what I was saying.

The rifle was that inaccurate from the prone position on a bipod at 25yards, just shooting at paper, with no stress at all...

...no other factors that I mentioned in my second post.

So, yes, the MG would defiantly be harder to shoot well with all the factors in my 2nd post at play, and those are what should be represented.

Thank you for helping prove my point about lack of first hand experience.

[M42 Zwilling]

Weird how this change has a few PR players concerned about realism in a video game again, but it's fine. I haven't played this live yet. But after some testing offline, this feels like a step in the right direction as far as realism is concerned.

Can you be more accurate than in game under ideal conditions? Sure. But 90% of the time you fire an AR in PR, you would not be under ideal IRL conditions. That would be prone with the bipod rammed into the dirt, sandbags on the bipod legs, on a downslope so you can really lean into the gun, and firing in very short bursts. I can say an M249 bounces around a fair bit IRL when you can't lock it down, and I'm sure it's even worse with lighter ARs.

IMO the level of AR accuracy we had before might even have been optimistic for ideal IRL conditions, and you could get that kind of accuracy while standing up firing off hand in game. The overall level of accuracy now is a way better representation of what I would expect under real combat conditions.

[UncleSmek]

Reality in all its honor(and trying to have things realistic in this engine is kind of outdated) the emphasis is not on that but on teamwork. Previously the AR in the hands of the right player was a deadly weapon and it had to be dealt with in order for you to advance on the objective. It added a real important element to meta but ofc it still is a deadly weapon but having all other weapons remain the same it kind feels like development towards a bad direction. Trying to see things from a reality perspective is wrong, teamwork is key. So all this talk about "oh you havent shot these weapons on RL what do you know" stuff is just meh

Right now the dutch rifleman kit is more effective than their AR due to the ammo-bag buff, nades etc.

[Danesh_italiano]

I did not knew that PR wanted to be more milsim than Squad or even more milsim than a SIMULATOR (arma).



Maaannnnnnn... i miss PR 0.98 (or that other version were you could pick up enemy kit, specially when playing as INS) Bf2 "hardcore" mixed with teamwork.

[UncleSmek]

Its the same with ATGM, it one hits most assets and you actually need to coordinate to some degree to destroy it or AVOID it so it forces teamwork. Now, you wouldnt nerf the atgm simply because it is so powerful??? I really dont get this logic. Same with AR, either destroy it or AVOID it. Dont nerf it cause ppl cant play the game against ppl who do. If anything you are making the learning curve less steep for the person on the receiving end of that barrel, not necassarily making it harder for the person behind it.

[Nate.]

It was changed, not really nerfed imo. I think it plays much better now due to the increased agility.
Taste differs, but please don't make this into some "DEVs only did it to nerf good players" thing. It's just really awkward to stare at an enemy for X seconds before your deviation is settled. Similarly it's awkward how you can be laser accurate on long distances with continued fire.

This was both fixed: To compensate for reduced settle time, firing deviation penalties were increased.

let's hope for some changes to suppression and I hope by then it will definitely be worth it to you as well..

[UncleSmek]

It was changed, not really nerfed imo. I think it plays much better now due to the increased agility.
Taste differs, but please don't make this into some "DEVs only did it to nerf good players" thing. It's just really awkward to stare at an enemy for X seconds before your deviation is settled. Similarly it's awkward how you can be laser accurate on long distances with continued fire.

This was both fixed: To compensate for reduced settle time, firing deviation penalties were increased.

let's hope for some changes to suppression and I hope by then it will definitely be worth it to you as well..

They ruined the 3, prone, 4, instant deviation sequence, thats where all of these problems stem from. Then they have just stacked layers of problems on each other.

[Nate.]

Ahh well why didn't you say right away that this "sequence", was your problem all along

That was already fixed some time ago and has nothing to do with this?

[Outlawz7]

They ruined the 3, prone, 4, instant deviation sequence,

Stupid devs ruining game engine tricks and exploits by removing them

[AlonTavor]

"reeeeeeeeee why did you ruin my obscure exploit only 30 people in the community know about"

[Grump/Gump.45]

Hi,

With all the recent changes to the AR kit nobody seems to get right.

Now you have rendered the AR kit useless and destroyed something that actually worked.
Sure, some changes to the accuracy shouldve been made but this is way too much. If you are dead-set on having this accuracy please increase the suppression effect. Also, when shooting single fire the weapon is still pretty useless even though you are perfectly still and hitting on the target.

AUTOMATIC RIFLEMAN/MACHINE GUN in the hands of an un-trained, unknowledgeable player holding the trigger down un-realistically (or like un-trained) should not be a death sentence for people coming in view of it. Especially if you are aiming for individual targets like a rifleman when you should suppress in bursts(which most people dont know what, how or the purpose why to in urban terrain, jungle is obvious).

Actually i like the idea of seeing a trained machine gunner versus un-trained with this wild new deviation. It is realistic in everyway it will affect the game, i believe it is proportionate to each weapon and its caliber. Which i will explain in detail below the factors that go into real life deviation like body movement, harmonic vibrations, ballistics, set up adjustments like cheek stock weld and shoulder butt weld(weld term used referring to you up against it). 5.56 might be a smaller round but you can fire it faster and it gets just as hot. I will explain how these factors affect machine guns.

I will also recommend to the DEVS, to incorporate barrel sag, barrel rise, barrel rifling wear for BAD PERMANENT KIT deviation and visible effects of bent up barrels. Just because you hate the deviation so much. Lets innovate and play with Smeks feelings and show how cruel reality can be without knowledge.

Things we dont see in game represented by deviation, when i first started playing i questioned myself why it takes deployed anything to set up so fast and answered my own question with what i know about real life. It just wouldn't be fair or realistic to be that accurate that fast with heavy weapon. Makes insurgents more fun to play as with varying skill levels and then you see people get taught real skills. People just figure it out or have been using this for long time in PR. Only for those that know how to use it realistically should be the most lethal. That includes long time players who dont know the details of COMBAT TECHNIQUES OF FIRE(linked below).

Smek this is Project Reality, i also thought much like the Devs it was unrealistic to have it be a straight stream of gun fire like Call of Duty from a machine gun held down. Inaccuracy from the deviation bar represent body movement, vibration, firearm harmonics and ballistics to high details. You have provoked the essay Smek, but i will try to keep this brief. The machine gun, whether small 5.56 automatic rifleman or larger MMG 7.62 rounds is to always be fired in short bursts. It is for accuracy, to prevent overheating, to prevent barrel rise, barrel sag, wear out of rifling happen faster cause the heat pretty much forging it to smooth bore by bullets smoothing it out.

You are lucky we dont have barrel changes along side reloading. Cyclic fire is just holding the trigger down for one minute. Then Rapid fire and sustained fire. This is literally where i learned the rest of how to shoot once i found grazing fire on YouTube. Click ctrl + F and search for words you want to jump to on page I.E Cyclic, makes learning and finding what you want to know that much faster. https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... 68/c05.htm

To explain why the LMG and MMG machine gun even when deployed really is that inaccurate, EXCEPT for mounted .50 cals in single shot clicks/very short bursts.(which a .50 cal Machine gun has set the world record for sniper shot in past) There are factors like harmonic vibrations represented by high amplitude in nodes(strong rigid features reducing vibrations) and anti-node(flex points that dont reduce vibrations) that flex the barrel with the heat from the vibrations of firing.

Higher temperatures in the environment AND in the firearm make bullets rise when leaving the barrel vibrating the barrel back up. So it goes up and down, flops back and forth. This happens even in sniper rifles and you want to reduce this by tuning the rifle. Old battle rifles had screws that pressed up against the barrel on the bottom, called a barrel tensioner screw which works by the same principle of you putting your finger on something shaking to steady it in that specific spot. So nodes(low/no vibrations) and anti nodes(high vibrations) are controlled tightness and rigidity of everywhere vibrations occur. Reason one shot at a time is most accurate cause one vibration. I learned this from Sniper 101 lesson 7 Rifle Vibrations & Harmonics, which teaches you how to tune your rifle for accuracy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h407yVs ... Un&index=7

So we deal with barrel sag especially in machine guns but also the rising bullet as it leaves machine gun vibrates it back up as it fires giving barrel rise. In real life you want to keep the barrel centered and accurate, meaning you fire and use it correctly to treat the tool right to keep it working. Barrels dont last forever for accuracy, in Project Reality VR i hope we get barrels, i hope they make them wear down on the rifling and get saggy requiring to replace the first two. I would use those extra barrels for dumping ammo on the jungle inaccurately. We dont need to worry about that in any related PR thing(yet), but the reduced deviation accuracy is incentive for the realistic use of machine guns.

Follow the deviation to perfection and you have the bursts. Sharpshooter, a player in the Army told me they say "DIE MF DIE" when they fire bursts to know how long to fire the burst, then the same amount of time for not shooting "DIE MF DIE" for suppressing jungle/woodland/bush lines in Korea.. If one is in your sights the length of that burst and saying that will put them down. In Project Reality as it fires all the explained factors happen in the moment making you inaccurate represented by deviation.