Project Reality Forums

I always notice one thing. During the regular army team plays squads and very organized. But as soon as this team starts playing for the insurgents, it loses all of its organization and disappears team game. People go by themselves, are dying every minute, silent and much resistance BLUFOR not have.

This happens not always but very often. A simple majority does not like to play insurgent-mode. Rather like, but not for the insurgents.

So I think we all need to think and propose here to the developers how to make the insurgent-mode more attractive to both sides, and not to say that the insurgents suck or this mode is ruined!

I was squad leading on Al Basrah yesterday doing an amazing job on the british team. We managed to get 5 Cashes destroyed and built firebases, conserved assets and did everything right banking 225 tickets with 2 caches left. From then on it all went downhill as we ended up losing the round.

This might be due to cache placement, but we had an awful time trying to get into the city. The sheer number of snipers was killing me and my squad rather quickly and we had to cross big open areas to get to the city which didnt help. The insurgents locked down the city and were able to win where i though we had this game in the bag by a mile. I was truely surprised when we lost.

I think the problem with insurgency is not so much the tickets, or number of caches that you need to get. Its the maps, their degree of difficulty, and the tactics of the players. I think each map should have their own particular rules, maybe 5 caches for a map like koregal valley, and 10 for al basrah. Or have 3 spawn at once on ramiel to make it easier, but have 8 caches.

There are so many factors that are required to make the game balanced. I enjoy insurgency alot more now then i did it the past. I think the whole approach to this gametype was changed in 0.9 as now it is worth it to be an insurgent and ambush, the other team does not have the abitity of spawing on rallies which can cripple them. On the other hand they have to defend better because they have less caches.

In short, Insurgency will never be perfect, some rounds blufor will get slaughtered, some they will dominate. There is so many factors its hard to balance. The Dev's have done an amazing job with this gametype and I love it more then AAS. I think tweaking the rules is necessary for maps, not gametype. And even then, the gametype will not be perfect.

I have seen the INS win plenty of times. It all depends on how well the team plays, and where the caches pop up.
Remember, IEDs do less damage, and blufor now get TANKS on more maps. There is very little the INS can do to the tank, besides trying to sneak up on it and place a mine under it.
Civilians also play a good role. They slow Blufor respawn and kit times.
It takes skill and more organization to play as INS now, which is great.

God damn, another victory for Hamas in Gaza Beach. We were so close..but then we failed. I destroyed 3 caches with only one friend. Needed just some brain and luck and it was easy when insurgents revealed the cache locations for us by shooting from cache buildings. It was great, with 2 more caches destroyed by someone else we needed just two. And ALL three remaining caches were in the G5/G6/H5/H6 compound. We had 80 tickets but there was no teamwork at all and we just wasted tickets and lost. We had a FOB in F5 but our team was just sitting there and getting killed. Unbelieveable.

I should note that it is a BIG new release. There are also a TON more new players. Many from Vanilla BF2, or from something like MW2 where team work isnt needed, it is just a shoot everything game.
So we have these new players clogging up the servers, that grab the nearest jeep or vehicle and CHARGE! It is amazing how many single crewed techies and humves i see. Even APCs and tanks!
These MW2ers are fighting for a kill count, and to just point their mouse at something to shoot it. It is especially true on INS maps when they intentionally shoot civilians or run them over.
Give it time. They will either learn to play the game, or get board and go back to their Xbox.

ANDROMEDA wrote:I always notice one thing. During the regular army team plays squads and very organized. But as soon as this team starts playing for the insurgents, it loses all of its organization and disappears team game. People go by themselves, are dying every minute, silent and much resistance BLUFOR not have.

This happens not always but very often. A simple majority does not like to play insurgent-mode. Rather like, but not for the insurgents.

So I think we all need to think and propose here to the developers how to make the insurgent-mode more attractive to both sides, and not to say that the insurgents suck or this mode is ruined!

I love beeing an insurgnent, specially on Fallujah West.. Nothing beats taking out APC's and humVs with RPG and IEDs.. All those APC whores are nothing but stupid noobs who arent up for the real challengne of playing as an insurgent with AK and Molotovs against the GIs and their M4s.

dtacs wrote:His comment holds some water.

Today on Karbala we simply won by every member on the team rolling in and using numbers to overwhelm the Insurgents (in quite a reversal of roles really) The amount of tickets given back to the blufor is way too high. We lost multiple APCs, jeeps, and logi trucks yet we came out on top with over 200 tickets to go, simply due to the zerg effect.

tl;dr agree with OP.

Actually if your team pulled that off, simply assembling the whole team and ganging up on a cache is more teamwork than I see elsewhere.

0.8 = 34 tickets per cache
0.9 = 57 tickets per cache

In 0.87 we had 10 caches giving the coalition 10 tickets per cache destroyed.
In 0.9 we have 7 caches giving the coalition 25 tickets per cache destroyed.

In 0.8... 250 (starting tickets) + 10 * 9(9 since the last cache doesn't give any usable tickets) = 340 tickets

Divide that by the number of caches (10) and we get 34 tickets per cache.

In 0.9... 250 + 25 * 6 = 400 tickets

Divided by 7 and we get 57 tickets per cache.

Personally, I think 57 tickets is too many tickets for each cache.

I think each insurgency map needs to be looked at as an individual, since they are all so very different.

I think some are great, others need work. Fallujah is perfect right now for example, Laskar valley is perfectly solid, korengal is hit and miss, etc.

badmojo420 wrote:0.8 = 34 tickets per cache
0.9 = 57 tickets per cache

In 0.87 we had 10 caches giving the coalition 10 tickets per cache destroyed.
In 0.9 we have 7 caches giving the coalition 25 tickets per cache destroyed.

I think this pretty much nails it. Perhaps my 1 in 10 comment was extreme, but the server I play on tends to have much better teamwork on the BLUEFOR side than most. Combine the extra tickets with an organized BLUEFOR team and the difference is overwhelming.

Personally, I think the devs should have just reduced the caches to 7 and left the ticket system alone. A large percentage of rounds in 0.87 resulted in the insurgents having fewer than 3 caches remaining. It seems the most common reason for a BLUEFOR loss is poor or nonexistent FOB placement.

In any case, the mode just *feels* wrong to me now. The BLUEFOR act more like berzerking Zulu warriors than a modern army.

nex911 wrote: This is supposed to be reality?

No, it's supposed to be A GAME. It can't be perfectly realistic because even if it were possible to make it like that, it wouldn't be fun.

Sounds like you just need to get better at being an insurgent because IMO it's still pretty easy, just not as easy as before.

nex911 wrote:I've been playing insurgency religiously since it first debuted in PR. However, it seems to me that the new rules encourage the US/Brit/IDF team to simply zerg every cache they have intel on.
-nex

You have played GAZA beach haven't you?

The M113 is RPG food the Merkava is easily taken out and IDF the majority of the time Lose.

Sex_Cactus wrote:No, it's supposed to be A GAME. It can't be perfectly realistic because even if it were possible to make it like that, it wouldn't be fun.

yeah if you die you get kicked from the server one life only in "reality"

I've never liked insurgency at all really... However I've noticed one thing in PR lately that bugs the **** out of me. Now that kits sit on the ground for 5 minutes, it's ridiculously easy for Insurgents to arm themselves with blufor gear. I've seen so many insurgents with M4s and L85s to a point of ridiculousness. Insurgents were supposed to have less powerful gear for the sake of assymetrical balance. Right now, that idea has been thrown out the window. I'd actually like to see the inability to pick up enemy kits in the future of PR.

google wrote:I've never liked insurgency at all really... However I've noticed one thing in PR lately that bugs the **** out of me. Now that kits sit on the ground for 5 minutes, it's ridiculously easy for Insurgents to arm themselves with blufor gear. I've seen so many insurgents with M4s and L85s to a point of ridiculousness. Insurgents were supposed to have less powerful gear for the sake of assymetrical balance. Right now, that idea has been thrown out the window. I'd actually like to see the inability to pick up enemy kits in the future of PR.

I second this. On Insurgent maps they get so much blueforce gear, its not even funny. It seems like at some points theres more insurgents with US kits than insurgents with their own weapons. This takes all measure of balance away intended by the Devs with giving the insurgents less powerfull gear to begin with. It gets really annoying when your squad gets taken out and all of a sudden you have a insurgent powerhouse going around with AR's and officer kits making them just as powerfull as you are. To make matters worse the blueforce often times does not protect their gear, or go back for it and be as carefull as they could so its free weapons for the insurgents. Also I agree the time kits on the map after dying really gives opportunities to this.

I notice this a lot on other maps than insurgentcy. It seems like any opforce team always wants to the blueforce gear, even when its good balance and the opforce gear is equal or better. I know sorta off topic but I also believe theirs issues with enemys taking enemies kits.

It goes both ways, I've killed many US soldiers with AK's in their hands.

And really what did you expect? People not to be able to pick up weapons off dead soldiers? Why? So a US soldier can rush in with his SAW and not have to worry about it being turned on his teammates, when he dies? It happens in real life. If people played correctly and moved as a team, this wouldn't be so much of an issue, but when we get snipers running into the city alone, you can't blame the insurgents for picking up the rifle and using it.

you got to thin kof the reality side of it. When you kill off a cache yes you get 25 men, but in real life the BLUEFOR forces are better trained and wouldnt really die that often. plus the insurgents have unlimited tickets so....do the math 300 deaths for insurgents, good luck having more and more people.. I LOVE .9

Looks like this one slipped through the net.

No longer.

Feedback forums are closed, that means no feedback threads anywhere else, ya dig?

I feel the increased tickets and reduced number of caches has only pushed the coalitions behavior even further towards unrealistic. Sending masses of men off to the meat grinder, because it works. I would like to see the coalition teams get better asset layouts. Give them more power, not more soldiers.

I would like to see the removal of all unarmed trucks(except the logistics truck) and more helicopters and armored transport added. Other vehicles and weapons such as the Mk19 humvee, javalin, AC130, etc that would greatly unbalance an AAS match, could be used in insurgency to improve the coalitions chances.

I'm honestly confused as to why we're driving around hostile areas in unarmored & unarmed humvees, land rovers and g-wagons, when we have LAVs, Bradleys, Warriors and Strykers at our disposal? And as a bonus, maybe if we had an APC on every street corner, more insurgents would learn to hide & ambush rather than fight the coalition head-on.

Also, I think the kit limits should be increased for insurgency, allowing for example, 8 grenadier kits rather than 4. Of course the squad limits would have to remain, so there wouldn't be 4 snipers in one squad.

badmojo420 wrote: Personally, I think 57 tickets is too many tickets for each cache.

The tickets aren't the problem, its the players.
Last night we had a game in gaza beach where we pushed IDF back to their main and held them there for the whole game, it's a matter of the players, not ticket reward; insurgency can win easily if they would only trap, delay, and build/rebuid multiple hideouts but I'm lucky if i see half the insurgent players in squads, even more if i see one squad working as a team.

nex911 wrote:I've been playing insurgency religiously since it first debuted in PR. However, it seems to me that the new rules encourage the US/Brit/IDF team to simply zerg every cache they have intel on. Giving them 25 tickets per cache means they can effectively throw more than 3 full squads at a cache and lose nothing. On top of that, there are fewer caches to defend (7 down from 10).

This is supposed to be reality? If you throw 25 men to die for a single cache, we will reward you with 25 more bodies to send into the meat grinder. The allies should be working to save every ticket, not throwing them away to get more.

Insurgency was slightly balanced in favor of the insurgent side in 0.8, but the new rules completely skew the balance such that the insurgents seem to win less than 1 in 10 and that's only on specific maps. I seriously hope this is addressed because currently the insurgency mode seems hopelessly broken. Unless the allies are just idiotic and constantly crash choppers, hit mines, etc they really cannot lose.

-nex

totally agree Nex. I only play 20 minutes of BLUFOR every 3 months or so, the rest is completely dedicated to INS.

Seems the DEVs are pro BLUFOR and is turning PR into a "BlackHawk Down" paradise - i.e. it caters for the weekend warrior types who naively believe BLUFOR power and gadgets will overcome all instead of working for their victory.

And it doesn't look like this disillusioned school of thought is gonna disappear any time soon.

In the last three versions we've seen INS weapons get nerfed and nerfed and nerfed EACH time while the BLUFOR get better weapons/assets/features with each version (only exception being the m249 which was slightly tweaked from a 500m burst fire laser sniper rifle into something more realistic - AND NOTE: DEVs camp were amendment prior to the introduction of the m249 (against the forewarning of many) that it would be perfectly balanced. wrong.

the problem stems from: 95% of BLUFOR culture consists of 3 things: 1. asset/kit whoring, 2. complete lack of basic tactics, 3. complete lack of initiative. And the kicker - the DEVs are actively encouraging this with each version by skewing the balance in every respect towards BLUFOR.


1. asset/kit whoring: simple, noobs believe that by having the HAT/Sniper, (insert limited kit/asset of choice here), scope/ACOG, they will be invincible, will be able to shoot the enemy from 300m and with the (insert limited kit of choice here) they will overcome all.
- In reality it doesn't work like that. If you can't bloody well survive on the battlefield with just ammo and open sights you have no fking business taking a special kit/asset WHICH REQUIRES MORE SKILL to properly use.


2. complete lack of basic tactics: Give a BLUFOR open sights and watch him go into anaphylactic shock. Tell him to assault that building and again watch him keel over. Ask him what he would do if ambushed and listen as he calls for APC/Humvee/Blackhawk support. Generalising but again, the problem is there's no basic tactics in BLUFOR and each version of PR makes it easier for BLUFOR to do the least amount necessary. Hell now with the UAV it's even easier to just drop a blackhawk onto the cache rooftop or send in the LB to flatten said building, cache destroyed, voila.

- Oh and just in case anyone was overly adamant that BLUFOR do indeed work very hard to find the caches... it's very common for BLUFOR to get mumble/vent intel from their clan mates/bed-buddies on where exactly the revealed and unrevealed caches are.

- v0.9 introduced the new FOB and RallyPoint system. What's the current state of this? It's akin to a patient rejecting his newly transplanted liver. BLUFOR players hate it and still mostly rely on blackhawk airlift/APC transport rather than (as it should be) WORKING for their victory by building/securing/guarding FOBs from which to attack.


3. complete lack of initiative: most of the time BLUFOR infantry simply holds 500m from the target/cache location and waits for either the LittleBird or Tank or (insert heavy asset of choice here) to completely flatten an area before they even CONSIDER moving in and actually making contact with the enemy. Part of this again stems from 1. asset/kit whoring - he doesn't want to lost his precious (insert limited kit of choice here).

Why DID insurgents win most of the time prior to v0.9 = because they rarely had 1, 2 or 3.

1. asset/kit whoring: wtf is an insurgent I going to do with a RPG that's fking useless beyond 100m and his only backup weapon (for most INS special kits) is a knife/rock? And that special car or bike? The damn thing will most likely blow up and kill the insurgent before he gets to the target area. Insurgents make do with what they have - these being AK47s, grenades, IEDs (used to) and molotovs. The odd case of kit/asset whoring (sniper/artillery IED) is mostly due to noobs that keep on wasting the kit.
- A BLUFOR's first response is I NEED THAT (insert limited kit/asset of choice here) IN ORDER TO WIN!
- An insurgents first response is more like I NEED MORE AMMO TO WIN!

2. complete lack of basic tactics: since insurgents have the most basic weapons known to man and alot of the special kits are nerfed, they don't have that mind-set of getting a special limited kit which will solve all our problems. They rely on applying the fundamentals, making due with what they have and learning to use these well. Insurgents employ their weapons and tactics in such a way as to leverage their strengths and avoid situations where they are weak.
e.g. an insurgent that knows what he's doing will quietly follow a BLUFOR squad and rather than open up on them from 150m out will get so close he can touch them. His open sights are useless at 150m. Only once he's close will he empty his magazine into the nearest targets and try to make it out alive.
e.g. an insurgent sapper that's surprised by enemy BLUFOR patrol will (if he knows what he's doing) get down, get in cover and wait for them. And when he fires that piece of sht SKS of his, he will focus on one round one kill because the enemy has full auto, and he doesn't.
e.g. Insurgent squad leaders actually actively communicate and work with each other - they have no god damn blackhawk which can quickly transport them to the target area so they alert nearby squads and on the whole work together, including building/rebuilding hideouts.

3. complete lack of initiative: since insurgents are fkked in most departments they have to employ initiative to survive and win. Insurgent squads ("that know what they're doing") will have a civy as a lookout, use the squad leader as a backup medic source, will use hit-and-run rather than full-on-frontal. They'll at least try and hide their FOBs because BLUFOR has UAV (btw nice work on the new v0.9 hideout placement code - it now needs a clear area the size of a parking lot before it'll place). They'll try and mine/IED an abandoned BLUFOR vehicle etc etc etc.

As I said earlier: And it doesn't look like this disillusioned school of thought is gonna disappear any time soon.Some new additions courtesy of v0.9:
- V0.9 IEDs and RKG anti-armour grenades = complete. utter. fail.
-- IEDs are now glorified hand-grenades with radio detonaters. pretty fking useless.
-- RKGs now do fkall damage to soft skinned vehicles. a truck/humvee can take a RKG hit to the front windscreen and drive on with no problem. pretty good vehicle designs if they can defeat a weapon that's supposed to be able to penetrate 125mm (4.9 inches) of rolled homogeneous armour plating.

- Hell, even the BLUFOR shotgun is now super accurate with near non-existent recoil and a very low buckshot dispersion pattern - while the insurgent shotgun is damn near useless (more so than in v0.8.)

- 7 caches and 25 tickets each = ridiculous.
I'll settle for 8 caches, 15 tickets each and ONLY ONE cache EXISTS in he game world at any one time = that includes revealed and unrevealed - combating that fking annoying problem of players telling the other team where exactly the caches are through using VOIP/multiple accounts.


Leeu