Infantry weapon damage changes

[Vista]

Heard there was this guy that picked up the old model and made his own changes, the absolute madman!

Wonder what happened with those?

[Allahu Akbar]

Heard there was this guy that picked up the old model and made his own changes, the absolute madman!

Wonder what happened with those?

I think it became irrelevant because people disliked both lack of realism and magic bullet damage.

[Vista]

I think it became irrelevant because people disliked both lack of realism and magic bullet damage.

If by 'people' you mean yourself and DogActual, yes - people really disliked the fact that I balanced the game

[solidfire93]

I think the next update to the DMG system with adjustments for barrel lenghts and ammo types will probably fix quite a few things people don't like about it now.

what makes you think that the next patch will fix this issue ? and i hope it does fix it...

in every post you made in this thread are quite messy...

you talk about a lot of stuff which it has nothing to do or have connection with each other and with the problem we have seen in PR recently !

instead of giving feed back you give suggestions.. which it wont help with this new DMG system while its still WIP....

before the the new system playing on Burning Sands (infy) was Balanced and felt like it's Balanced... but now G3 and MG3 FTW... even in close Range... how come you agree on that the new system is better... ?

not to mention the 7.62×51mm fired from an M40 Rifle wont kill in 1 shot 10m away from its Target in dead center Abdomen.

and im sure that Russian Soldier i shot at wasn't wearing the AR500 Armor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z5woLeZ6hM

7.62x51mm @ 4:38 in the video..


that Armor can hold 7.62×51mm but idk if a standard issue body armor can hold that shot at 10m close range.... and i don't think barrel length* will help solving the issues we have seen so far......

any type of weapon or Rifle that fires 7.62x51mm are deadly and can kill in one shot IRL
no matter what Barrel it has at a range of less than 10m

i say IRL cause that what the Dev's are aiming for but its seems that in my case it failed to achieve "Realism"...

also RO or RS have nothing to do with PR, it's a just a fun game that makes you feel like you in a War Movie or something...

again :

[Allahu Akbar]

"can kill in one shot" - just about anything that hits vital area can kill in one shot.

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008/Intl/Roberts.pdf

Neither type of current 7.62 mm M80 FMJ possesses ideal accuracy or terminal performance characteristics...

page 20

So one-shot-black/white seems just right for M14 damage to unarmored torso.

There appears to be two types of M80 used with no way of identifying by eye; so RNG might be the way to go(base damage for Vietnam M14 fluctuate between 75 and 100) along with recoil increase. (currently still insignificant compared to M16)

If by 'people' you mean yourself and DogActual, yes - people really disliked the fact that I balanced the game

If by "the fact" you mean "your opinion" then you might be close to being correct.

The fact is that you tried to "balance" game by doing it wrong way instead of actually adjusting recoil.

[DogACTUAL]

"can kill in one shot" - just about anything that hits vital area can kill in one shot.

That's what i have been trying to tell him, but he is like 'muh 7.62x51 instagibs anything it touches'.

@ solid: check out that link: https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866
Look at the part of the graph where it says 'rifle'. I assume that would be 7x62x51 or something similar like .300 Win Mag.
Then compare it to the other cartridges.

And here a quote from the link from the post before mine:

Neither type of current 7.62 mm M80 FMJ possesses ideal accuracy or terminal performance
characteristics, especially from barrels shorter than 16-18”. 7.62 mm M118LR 175 gr OTM used
in sniper rifles like the Mk11, M110, M24, and M40A3 is very accurate and offers good
performance at longer ranges--making it ideal for sniper use. However, the documented
inconsistent close range terminal performance and poor intermediate barrier performance of the
heavy SMK OTM make it a less than ideal choice for CQB engagements, urban combat, and short
barrel use.

[Frontliner]

Is it an option to make a model like RO or RS where every gun is a one or two hitter, so it doesn't really matter if guns are OP? Could be plausible, because remember wounded state in PR is only incapacitation, i guess IRL one or 2 rifle rounds should incapacitate someone (depending on circumstance).

Dog, you realize people in infantry play medics in order to keep squad cohesion up and maintain realistic combat feel? If everybody goes around two-shotting you're not doing the game any favour whatsoever.

This is pure game design and philosophy. You cannot(or at least you shouldn't) slap a revised system on top of things and be like "That's how it should be" when it breaks the last semblence of balance the game enjoyed in certain areas(INS primarily) and neither can you turn every weapon into a one-hit-KO machine. Wake up, Dog, the game is centered around teamwork, the more bullets go down range towards the enemy, the better, not the more oneshots people can dish out. Neither RO2 nor RS is remotely compareable in teamwork to PR, the mere thought of taking them as blueprint for PR is absolutely laughable. It doesn't even make sense realistically, which, as you may recall, was 1) the purpose of this revised system and 2) the excuse you yourself used to defend said revised system.

If you make every weapon system one-hit-capable, what's the point of the battle rifles with their comparatively low ammo capacity? There is none, because their main selling point is their damage. Nerfs make things more pronounced in nature, the more bullets you need to kill a person, the more you are able to distinguish between firstly Sniper/Bolt Actions, Heavy Machine Guns, Battle Rifles and GPMGs, Light Machine Guns and Assault Rifles, PDWs and finally Sub Machine Gun catridges and secondly what type of weapon should receive a buff to complement the role. That doesn't mean a Sniper should take 3 shots to kill a person, you need to be smart about what you're doing when game designing: A Sniper fires once every 4 seconds, has an insanely long deviation timer after moving, game design dictates these drawbacks call for a compromise somewhere - and since 7.62 doesn't usually one-shot(or at least used to) on body armour a Sniper rifle can do just that to make up for all the other drawbacks - to give it a fucking purpose.

Now Zwilling declares the cartridge to be the ONLY factor in the damage calculation and what happens?
The Israelis get a Sniper Rifle with 5 shots and all the negative traits of a sniper, whereas MEC carry a rifle with the same caliber as standard issue without any sniper drawbacks. Instead the G3 has 4x as many rounds, no major deviation time in-between shots, faster settle time and easier handling. You can even put it on full-auto! Is it fair in any shape or form to make such a specialised and limited weapon useless compared to the run-of-the-mill-gun of the opposition? I say no it isn't, it's non-sense, and that's the core criticism I have with this system.
True, from a realism perspective it makes sense. But this is still a game.

[DogACTUAL]

Straw man fallacy. I never said make the whole game design like RO or RS and use them as a blueprint, i said maybe get a similar DMG system.
I wasn't sure if it would even be a good idea, that's why i worded it as a qestion. Just a quick idea i had, didn't analyze it for hours before i posted it.

I also said 1 or 2 hit, so battle rifles would be a one hit incap and assault rifles a 2 hit incap. pistols would be like 3. You make it sound like i said every weapon no matter the cartridge 1 hit incap.

Also wouldn't medics become more important with that kind of a system, where you can't just patch yourself after being hit?

You talk about realistic combat feel. For me realistic combat feel would be firefights at longer ranges where suppressive fire is utilized mostly and most of the shots miss, but when they hit, they hit hard like IRL.
Or firefights at close ranges where many shots hit and the outcome is decided very quickly. So no taking two hits and then just hopping around the corner to patch, unless maybe body armour is hit.

About sniper rifles vs G3:
Sniper rifle is made for long range engagement where it shits on the G3 accuracy, so it still has an advantage over it.

[Frontliner]

Straw man fallacy. I never said make the whole game design like RO or RS and use them as a blueprint, i said maybe get a similar DMG system.
I wasn't sure if it would even be a good idea, that's why i worded it as a qestion. Just a quick idea i had, didn't analyze it for hours before i posted it.

How am I straw-manning an argument when you brought that shit into play? We've already had enough with 7.62 one-shotting everybody, we don't need all calibers one-shotting.
Also lol
"Hi, I'm Dog_Actual, today I try to make an argument/a suggestion that I haven't thought through, please don't provide feedback on it because I myself am not sure."

If you don't want feedback, don't write. If you haven't thought something through, don't write.

I also said 1 or 2 hit, so battle rifles would be a one hit incap and assault rifles a 2 hit incap. pistols would be like 3. You make it sound like i said every weapon no matter the cartridge 1 hit incap.

Is it an option to make a model like RO or RS where every gun is a one or two hitter, so it doesn't really matter if guns are OP?

You fucking what mate?

Also wouldn't medics become more important with that kind of a system, where you can't just patch yourself after being hit?

No. More Bullet Damage=More Tactical is a best an oversimplification. The game needs to be build around it. If I can one-hit a player, I'll spray bullets wildly because that increases my chances. If I have to hit 2,3 or 4 I have to be more thoughtful of how and when I engage because I can't rely on the off-chance oneshot.

You talk about realistic combat feel. For me realistic combat feel would be firefights at longer ranges where suppressive fire is utilized mostly and most of the shots miss, but when they hit, they hit hard like IRL.
Or firefights at close ranges where many shots hit and the outcome is decided very quickly. So no taking two hits and then just hopping around the corner to patch, unless maybe body armour is hit.

First of all, you have very little knowledge of combat. I don't have my own first-hand experience either(thankfully!), but I have at least been taught the techniques and the how-to to a limited degree.
Secondly it is near-impossible to design a game around RL properties. We have no fear of death, we fear losing our playtime instead. That's why we take chances in game and none in reality. To me it is Perfectly Acceptable to make LMGs and GPMGs powerhouses that can mow down several people(the former in CQB even) instead of a purely or largely suppressive element because their true combat value cannot be replecated ingame yet we can't do a game without them. If you play PR for realisim's sake you've been mistaken. You're playing a game with realistic apparel and nothing else.

About sniper rifles vs G3:
Sniper rifle is made for long range engagement where it shits on the G3 accuracy, so it still has an advantage over it.

Except it doesn't matter because the person is just hurting a bit, goes behind cover, medic bag comes around and the muppet goes back to looking around the corner.
I played Sniper on Ulyanovsk recently, distance about 350, maybe 400m. I had to go for headshots to take them out, but good luck hitting a head at that distance with 170 ping and an unclear bullet drop. I fired, give or take, 15 rounds, 12 hit, 2 which didn't look like they registered server-side and 3 headshots. I was in the same place for a good 15 minutes(!) and they kept looking at me not feeling a thing.

10/10 update

[Raidonrai]

The medics would just get one-shot too you goober

And get outta here with that mufuckin *** accuracy bullshit homie, any sort of realistic range that you're gonna kill people at the G3 will molest the sniper under current system

[Vista]

When people use the words 'Kinetic Energy' and 'Barrel Lenght' I just stop reading their posts

[Mouthpiece]

With the provided feedback

how much longer it will take to get this change reversed back to the way it was?

DEV's didn't state that it will get reversed to the way it was before. Instead it will get updated. So the idea will stay, but hopefully we'll get some major tweaks.

[Mostacho]

DEV's didn't state that it will get reversed to the way it was before. Instead it will get updated. So the idea will stay, but hopefully we'll get some major tweaks.

Thanks for answering Iknow the 3dac staff have more access to this type of information

I know you have nothing to do with this

Bud did they realised that the engine combined with the maps layouts do not support this kind of "realistic" approach, it just breaks the gameplay

Still what was so wrong with the old damage that had to be fixed!?

There is also no realistic approach to repair the insurgent gamemode, so what they will do to fix it?

They talked about some of these things i asked?

[tankninja1]

When people use the words 'Kinetic Energy' and 'Barrel Lenght' I just stop reading their posts

Everybody likes longer barrels.

[Allahu Akbar]

When people use the words 'Kinetic Energy' and 'Barrel Lenght' I just stop reading their posts

You don't read anyway.


---Balance of weapon could be easily fixed with both realism and gameplay in mind if you apply a bit of knowledge on actual weapon(which EA can't, neither can Vista from what I have seen).
Zwiling's mistake was basing damage purely on kinetic energy, your mistake was basing damage on rate of fire.

SKS, for example, does appear to be subpar version of AK currently.
However, it can simply have better accuracy and handling(it uses short-stroke gas piston system which should mean lower recoil than AK which uses long-stroke system, and has traditional type rifle stock so it could use tighter hipfire deviation).

Tighter hipfire can also be applied to bolt action rifles(no optics).

For 3-round-burst-M4/M16, they can even have lower vertical recoil(but slightly more horizontal recoil) due to modeled vertical foregrip. This has been done in Insurgency(source game).

[Rabbit]

So I feel I am at the point where I am comfortable giving feedback now. I remember way back when snipers were debated whether or not it should be one shot or not. Considering even that was a limited kit, I think its just overall negative to gameplay that 7.62x51 is one shot for main rifles now. I think they should for gameplay reasons be set back to 2 shots.

here is how I feel 7.62x51 should be against unarmored
50m 95 damage 300m 78 600m 45

Generally everything is scaled back a bit in pr, and I see no reason why we cannot do the same for weapons as well.

[obpmgmua]

.45 acp is useless. Me and my friend were testing it out. He was blufor and I was INS. It took me two mags to kill him point blank in the chest. Then a whole mag in the feet.

[X-Alt]

.45 acp is useless. Me and my friend were testing it out. He was blufor and I was INS. It took me two mags to kill him point blank in the chest. Then a whole mag in the feet.

You can't hit people in the feet.

[centipod]

Yeah, the feet don't have hitboxes. Like the exact opposite of Achilles.

I just wanted to say I really appreciate the work you Devs are doing! Some neerfing and beefing here and there doesn't wreck the gameplay. You just keep shooting until the enemy goes down. The most important factor determining whether you win or lose is how the teamwork is going!

I was a bit worried on how the bolt action rifles would do after the updates but as I understand they will still be alright if you aim for the upper legs.

Cheers!

[Allahu Akbar]

.45 acp is useless. Me and my friend were testing it out. He was blufor and I was INS. It took me two mags to kill him point blank in the chest. Then a whole mag in the feet.

I already checked files.

.45acp does even less damage than 9mm for strange reasons.

---
I would avoid any comparison with Rising Storm 2.
That game is an arcade-shooter with spawn-on-sl, less than half of PR's minimum spawn time, and heart shots - which could only be represented in this game by damage-RNG.