[Vehicle] AMZ Dzik [WIP](PL)

[flamaster69]

After feedback, next upgrade. Still have problem with glasses. Additionaly, problem with back mapping. How should I correct it?
Less dirt. Without normalmap and specular yet.

Interior has separate mesh and textures.
@Hauteclocque: I do this by myself, by my hand. If you think it should be done in different way, pgive me please exact sample or tut or something like this.

Thanks for your attention and advices.

[lucky.BOY]

First of all I am sorry to post this feedback with a delay, but i simply couldnt post it before, as i was on holiday (and will leave for a few days again, tomorrow).

I have based this feedback on crawling through that 3d preview, so i dont know how many of it is still relevant to your model in its state.

So here it is:


Green: gaps in geometry there, you can see through it. You need to move relevant edges to close those gaps, or better yet weld those parts where needed (like on the hood).
Red: parts of the grill are poking through another part of geometry on the right, and not on the left. Whatever is correct, it should be the same on both parts of the grill.
I would reccomend you to bake the grill on a normal map, as it will save a lot of tris.


Red: something strange going on in there, parts of geometry poking through each other. Best bet is to weld it together.
Purple: The second window seems to be pushed into the model, I dont know if its intentional or not, but it seems to be wrong, according to your refs. It also couses some weird looking textures, if you look at that part in your textured screenshot.
Yellow: Try to unsmooth the inner cillinder of the wheel, it will save some tris.
Green: You really should weld that.


Blue: Weld all those parts into the hood, needed to avoid z-fighting.


Those smoke grenade launchers have really wrong edge flow, you need to repair it. Also Those lower parts have quite many edges, I think they can do with equally many or less edges that those upper ends. That said i think those upper ends might need a little more edges.


On accaunt of interior, i found quite a few missing faces there, hope that is fixed already. You can delete those faces in yellow though, as they are not going to be visible normally.


Red: something from behind is sticking through the steering wheel, i would delete those faces and move relevant edges behind the steerwheel. I would also advice adding a face to the behind of the steering wheel, as right now everybody that is looking through the window from outside would see through the steering wheel.
Do steering wheels also need to have one central vertex to turn around, like normal wheels?


There is this gear shift lever, that is only visible from one side. I would go for making it a foursided, low poly mesh.


There is a gap between the bottom of the vehicle and rest of it, Its a transparent area all around the vehicle, marked in red.

In Yellow are some verticles that currently dont add anything to the silouette and should be removed:
http://i.imgur.com/Uj2K8.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NLRQK.jpg
In blue is a poking piece of geometry


Yellow: an unneeded vert
Blue: missing faces!

http://i.imgur.com/4oGzj.jpg
The wheel on the roof, souldntn it be a copy of other wheels? It looks differently on the p3d. And you can probably get rid of that central vertex there.

http://i.imgur.com/QJjNB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nuBg6.jpg
This triangle that connects the rope to the main model is visible form only one side.

Other issues:
The front mask is not attached to the model in any visible way, not that curcial issue though.
You really need to make a 1p model, where you put more tris into parts that are close to players view, and make them more detailed. You can completely delete many parts of the model, on the other hand.

Hope I helped you abit.

-lucky

[Jacob PR]

Great job man, I'm glad you fixed those things. But.. but there are still some small things bothering me. Yes now I'm just netpicking on the small details but I'm a perfectionist Easy to be when I'm not modeling huh... To the point.

1. Doors:

*CUATION* There isn't any door on the *LEFT* side of the Dzik-3. It still have the window and the firing port.
*The first door is too horizontally wide and should be vertically shortened a litte. The form of the first door isn't right because it shoudln't have a 90 angle in it's bottom edge, just like with the roof.
*Both door edges should start from the bottom on the same level as the uprised bottom door hinge.



2. Windows:

*Add back the front window geometrical edge, with textured screws like on the other windows.
*The two door windows are too big, should be 50% smaller.
*The second door window should be in the middle of the door and on the same level horizontally from the top as the other three smaller windows.
(The second door square winow have the same horizontal width and has exaclty twice the vertical lenght of the three smaller windows).
*The three smaller windows just litte shortened horizontally, vertically they are fine. Same thing with the two smaller rear windows, same windows.



3. Firing ports:

*Add the front firing port to the bottom right of the front window where the space is.
*The firing ports under the windows should be exactly 1cm under the windows on all windows.
*The first door firingport should be under the middle of the door/window. Second door firing port also in the middle under the small square window, which is in the middle of the door, not close to the edge.
*The two door firing ports are on the same level and shouldn't go below the middle line/edge of the Dzik.




4. Door hinges:

* First door hinge should be shortened from the bottom.
* Both door hinges tops should end where the middle line/edge of the Dzik is going.
* Back door should have two hinges on the bottom right side, below the middle line/edge.



5. Smoothing:

* Could you make the rear pipe/bumper more rounded like in the front? But the front bumper could be 10% more thicker. Also the ramps under the doors are hold by the same type of rounded pipes used in the front/back bumpers. Maybe try to smooth out some more cylindrical objects like the granade launchers and wheels. It's 5000 tris as of now, and 7000 tris is acceptable for this kind of vehicle. So you can improve the smoothness of the car some more.
* I have noticed also another white light in the middle between the red&blue lights... where that tall thing is. oO


Thanks, it's a bit to much I think but it's everything my eye have found, for now...

[flamaster69]

Hi,
thanks a lot for your feedback, I was doing correction all day long. Hope there will be everthing okay. I put off 'clothes' from dzik, to better view what's going on.
So:

[Zemciugas]

Looks much better and cleaner overall, one thing that still bugs me is why the extra spare wheel on the roof is so different from the others? Just copy paste it, worth the extra few hundred tris. The steering wheel could be round

Looks very nice overall. Good job. Great progress on Polish forces!

[Jacob PR]

You forgot only one thing. The rear middle door window. It shouldn't have the rectangle shape. It's the same square shaped window that's on the second door (look at the pictures I have posted below). And for my eye I think that the square window should be shortened vertically from its base by 1 or 2 cm, so all four sides are equally long. Don't forget to put the same square window on the rear door Fix that and texture it properly and this model will bee A++ grade work. Awesome job man and thank you for listening.

Adjustments left until texturing.

Sides - Add "white" edge. Shorter second door window. Move door handle. Door hinges don't pass the black line.




Rear - Add "white" edge. Make the middle window into a square.

[foxtwofive]

Good job. Finally seeing some progress from the Polish Team

[lucky.BOY]

Looking much better, still some things to fix though. I cant draw reasonably on this machine, so i will post further feedback when i get home (cca 2 days)

There seems to be many unnecessary vertexes, for example on the side of the vehicle or on windscreen frame. When the vertex doesn't add to the shape of the model or isnt needed to divide different materials, get rid of it, i think.

Front and rear bumpers are not connected to the vehicle in any way. That would look weird, if somebody notices .

You really need to make a separate 1p model. The steering wheel is great for 3p model, as it will be seen only from the outside.
Btw, Is the 1p model used also by gunner, or not? Or is it codeable?

Also would be nice if you could post that awesome 3d preview, and possibly some wiref rames, too.

Again, i will add more when i get home.

@Grober alright, my bad, didnt notice this on those refs. He has those same vertexes on the other side, though. Unused.

-lucky

[Zulnex]

Looks awesome. Keep up the splendid work.

[flamaster69]

Jacob and Lucky, thanks for the next portion of priceless advices. I've corrected nearly all.
Jacob, doors ledges will be texturized. Normal map will make them. I'm trying to make Dzik very economically in vertixes count, thats why some elements are so simply. I didn't know that some of them are so important in 1p (does it mean first person? very close?).

Doors will be on textures.

Lucky and others - awsome 3d preview

http://p3d.in/SNeld

[Jacob PR]

Jacob and Lucky, thanks for the next portion of priceless advices. I've corrected nearly all.
Jacob, doors ledges will be texturized. Normal map will make them. I'm trying to make Dzik very economically in vertixes count, thats why some elements are so simply. I didn't know that some of them are so important in 1p (does it mean first person? very close?).

Yes I know some things will be textured, like doors. I've wanted to give you the right position and form of the doors when you'll start texturing And to show you that the door handle was in the wrong place. Well I'm glad that most things are fixed now. Glad to be any help.

Between, will the rear middle window be fixed? It's the same window (square) as on the second door. Could you make the roof wheel be 1cm higher than it's emplacement. Like you did before with the wheels rounded off edge, but lower (~1cm). I think 1p means first person

[PoisonBill]

Looks really nice actually, great work guys!

[Psyrus]

[lucky.BOY]

Yeah, 1p means first person I will try to explain, but I have only theoretical knowledge in this, i have never modeled any vehicle for PR myself, maybe someone else can correct me.

Anyway, you (can?) have two main meshes, third person and first person. Third person mesh is what you are now modeling, its basically the model that is seen by anyone outside of the vehicle. It doesnt need to have that detailed interior, as the interior is only going to be seen from the outside, through windows.
The first person mesh is what you can see when you are inside the vehicle. The main difference is that you can delete all faces that are not visible from the inside, like wheels, bottom of the vehicle, front grill, jerry cans, whatever you cant see when inside. Be careful, however, do not overdo this, as its pretty awkward when something is missing on the 1p mesh, when you should be able to see it.
On the other hand, you can use all those pretty saved tris on making the interior nicer. You can make the steering wheel smoother, chamfer wind screen frames, stuff like that. Also spend some tris on the passenger area.
A nifty thing I remember seeing around here is that you can then take the 1p interior, modeled and textured, and bake it onto the 3p interior, which will save some work, and also make the 3p interior prettier and looking more 3d.

However, I am not sure about one major thing, and that is if you can have more then one 1p mesh. For example, the gunner is seeing something completely different to what passenger in the back sees, so it would be desirable to have a separate mesh for the gunner, with nicely modelled roof and ballisitic shield, while having one main 1p mesh for the rest of seats, which could have the roof more or less deleted, saving up some tris.
Most probably there is only one 1p model for each vehicle, so youre best off making a 1p model that can be used by all positions in the vehicle.

Hope I have cleared it up a bit, and that I didnt post too many pieces of wrong information

Will take a look at the p3d when i get home

-lucky

[flamaster69]

But when I'm modelling this vehicle, I should to fit in 6k tris. It's very hard to achieve it when, i.e. the steering wheel should to be more roundy. I thought that some roudness I'll achieve by baking normal map from HP model.
Please, check my model, and tell me in which places I can spent more tris.
I can do the steering wheel more soft, the passenger seat, back seats. And my tris limit will be reached. 6k tris on the whole model.

[Jacob PR]

Hi again. I think I found the last errors with the current model.
Between, 6000 tris is good but you can get away with 7000-8000 max. Don't worry to much about going over 6000.

Sides


*(White)* The car is to long, look at the distance from third small window to the second square window.
*(Take this to account when you fix other errors).
(Red) Upper lines mark the correct rear chassis curves. Bottom lines mark the correct wheel openings/fenders.
(Pink) Wheel position and distance from the fenders. Rise front wheel, lower back wheel, 1-3 cm from the fender.
(Orange) Second door hinge should be stretched to the bottom edge.
(Yellow) Smoke launchers should be bigger (than the lights) and have an cap on top, like a mushroom (before).
(Green) Move the roof wheel up a bit, as I have corrected.
(Blue) Antenna is different. It consists of three parts/stages.

Rear



*(Red)* The car is to wide. Correct side curves are marked out. Correct the middle window into a square.
*(Take this to account when you fix other errors).
(Yellow) Smoke launchers are seen from the rear. They should be bigger and have a cap on top, like a mushroom (before).
(Green) Fuel canister holders should be way more rounded. And have a middle support pipe.
(Blue) Antenna is different. It consists of three parts/stages.

[lucky.BOY]

Flamaster, you have to understand that in the end, there are two separate geometries, geom0 and geom1. Geom0 is displayed when you are inside the vehicle, and Geom1 is displayed when you are outside. These pistures should give you a better idea. British Panther CLV -

Geom0


Geom1 (dont mind missing wheels)


You can see that the creator basically modelled the vehicle with simple interior (that is good enough if you are looking at it from the outside, i.e. through a window), as geom1. Then he copied it and deleted all faces, that are not visible from the inside. This has lowered the tri cound of the geom0 model, so he could spend more tris on the interior and make it nicer. This would give him his geom0 model.

Then it is possible, as i remember, to texture the geom0 model, and then bake its textures and normals back onto the geom1 model (the one with simple interior).

You have to understand that only one of those two geometries is displayed at a time. So they can both have similar tri counts.

One major difference between Dzik and Pather is that you have a gunner on top of dzik, so you have to think about what he can see. So dont delete the roof, spare wheel, and things like that.

For the geom1 (the thrid preson model) you dont need to make the interior any better (If I dont count issues I will talk about below), But when the geom1 is finished (from the outside), you can start working on geom0 with better interior.

Now some crtis on the model:


RED: pole from steering wheel is sticking through the model, and its visible from below.
circled in Yellow: unnecesary verts
Green: missing faces


A major smoothing error on both inside walls


Purple: Those inside faces of window frames are moved upside a little bit, and in some cases are deformed (Yellow) Best bet would be to delete them and recreate them with bridge tool.
Red: a pole from the little cage around the light in the middle is sticking through the roof.
http://i.imgur.com/zLsxD.jpg


The steering wheel has smoothing all wrong. You cant smoooth object by putting it in one smooth group. If you did it so, try to make it better when doing geom0 and then bake it back onto the geom1 interior.


chair has the smoothing all wrong, too.


a missing vert is deforming the ballistic shield. better recreate this area.


Back of this light is not smoothed at all

Similar thing here http://i.imgur.com/9oqAe.jpg


Those wipers are missing some faces.

MIssing faces:

E: Corrected some typos, i was really tired when i was posting this. Also, what is the tri count now?

[flamaster69]

Hi,
I have a problem with smoothing. What is best solve to repair this sides? To delete this surfaces and make it again? Or is there any simplier way to do this?

[lucky.BOY]

Hmm, do you have all the verts that you want in one plane? For example if the second side window would be sinked a little into the car, it would cause errors like this.

You might want to open a front view in wireframe and check if all the edges that should be in one plane are behind each other, if you know what i mean.