Recoil has destroyed gunplay

[WingWalker]

The 1911 has the same recoil as a battle rifle

Yeah, the 1911 should have way more recoil.

Although, which battle rifle in the world he is talking about I don't know...

Six seconds is an awful lot of time to be standing still, and lining up your shot.

Yeah, fortunately you only need to do that to hit targets at the maximum distance.

You don't need to wait the whole 6 for something closer.

[camo]

You know, I think this whole; 'Six Second Settle Down System.' Needs to be looked at too. Six seconds is an awful lot of time to be standing still, and lining up your shot. Especially in a game like this where people have little incentive to camp. I think the system should remain for sniper rifles and other long range weapons. But should be lessened for service rifles and pistol caliber weapons..

This will not change, not for PR.
Deviation slows the gameplay. It stops the player going from a sprint to a headshot, it stops firefights being over in an instant, it rewards those that plan ahead. It is a very important ingredient in the PR recipe.

[dcm]

which battle rifle in the world he is talking about I don't know...

All of them. They all have similar recoil. Last time I checked.

Yeah, fortunately you only need to do that to hit targets at the maximum distance.
You don't need to wait the whole 6 for something closer.

Nope you can miss a target 100m away even if you're one second short on the wait time.

This will not change, not for PR.
Deviation slows the gameplay. It stops the player going from a sprint to a headshot, it stops firefights being over in an instant, it rewards those that plan ahead. It is a very important ingredient in the PR recipe.

I will never accept deviation as a good and legitimate gameplay mechanic in any game. Having your gun shoot sideways, because you stopped to take a shot at somebody, will always feel like bullshit. I'm not saying all guns need to be sniper accurate all the time. But having your gun make an outline of the enemy in bullets, because all your shots miss. It's like something out of a bad british comedy sketch.

Granted modern day PR's deviation is not as bad as it was in .7. Now that was overt in your face unfair bullshit. I still remember those dark days. So many friends quit. MOA I can understand. But it has to disclosed and there has to be a way to work around the mechanic. I cant recall the last game I played that had proper MOA mechanics that didn't go hard into the milsim side.

[Frontliner]

You know, I think this whole; 'Six Second Settle Down System.' Needs to be looked at too. Six seconds is an awful lot of time to be standing still, and lining up your shot.

I have no idea where you're getting the numbers from, but outside of the deployed weapons and AT weapons there is no weapon system that requires you to wait more than 4, and this has been the case for EIGHT AND A HALF years now. Looking through the files, most weapons seem to have the movement deviation set to decay over the span of 105 to 120 game ticks.

Especially in a game like this where people have little incentive to camp.

Huh? Both in Insurgency and AAS there is value to holding ground. What do you mean there is no incentive in defending, that's the entire playstyle of the insurgents with the exception of FOB hunters and Civis....

What got me killed was the god damn deviation. We were less than 5m apart and I saw my bullets go around the guy, hitting the wall in front of him.

What got you killed was your own impatience. If an enemy hasn't noticed you, you have all the time in the world. We even have indicators now to let you know how much longer you have to wait....

I will never accept deviation as a good and legitimate gameplay mechanic in any game. Having your gun shoot sideways, because you stopped to take a shot at somebody, will always feel like bullshit.

There a a bunch of engine restrictions that cannot be breached, we can't model sway for example, we can't model actual fatigue, and so the deviation mechanic becomes our only option to force players to play in a more tactical manner because you can't out-skill or out-aim your opponent. Every time I watch Squad's, Post Scriptum's or Hell Let Loose's gameplay I can't help but feel that you basically still have a twitch-shooter with some extra steps to make the casuals think that it's hardcore. If you consider these games more interesting than what is being offered by us, you should give them a try. It's not as though it's 2012 and the only choices are either Arma or PR for your teamwork needs.

The team universally agrees that both for aforementioned restrictions and in the interest of gameplay we'll not do away with having the deviation mechanic being an integral part of it. I have some ideas with regards to CQB, to make the instances during which you legitemately shoot all around your opponent less common, but it's always dependant on randomisation as well as you adhearing to the game's rules, I can only increase the certainty of events happening in your favour when you play correctly. If you're still impatient and can't be arsed to wait a second or two, I can tell you any change I make won't do you any good, that's just how it is.

[BigBigMonkeyMan]

I agree, Squad and Hell Let Loose gameplay clips all just look like Battlefield 4 weapons gun play but with lower time to kill. The ability to twitch shoot headshots is just dumb. In those games, it never appears people pick their engagements either or using suppressing fire. If you see an enemy there is no thought, just shoot. PR is about making those decisions on when to fire and when not to fire, as well as using squad tactics like covering fire.

[Grump/Gump.45]

I will never accept deviation as a good and legitimate gameplay mechanic in any game. Having your gun shoot sideways, because you stopped to take a shot at somebody, will always feel like bullshit. I'm not saying all guns need to be sniper accurate all the time. But having your gun make an outline of the enemy in bullets, because all your shots miss. It's like something out of a bad british comedy sketch.

Deviation should never extend past the middle 1/3 of the screen unless coming out of a sprint due to weapon swaying. 6 seconds sounds about right for coming out of a sprint, getting a good cheek weld to stock, lining up target. This game doesn't have heavy breathing from running throwing aim off but deviation can represent that. 10 steps I would have to say for shooting that could translate to deviation.

1. stop moving
2. cheek weld
3. breath control
4. shoulder pocket rifle butt for recoil
5. steady body

Ill come up with the other 5 later, all related to bio-mechanics that throw aim off.

[dcm]

I believe a member of the Reality team told me that it's six seconds and yeah I believe it.

Impatience? No it was an emergency. The enemy was only a few meters away from me. Deviation should not be so bad as to make me miss every last shot.

Surprisingly I agree with about PR's spiritual successors. I dont like them either. But it's not for the reasons you listed. Twitch shooters are not my jam either. Games like PS, HLL, Squad etc. All lack the heart and soul of PR. They are so restrictive. It doesn't make sense to me that one part is tactical milsim and the other is cod. PR has overall better gameplay. In spite of it's deviation system.

Let me tell you(again) why the deviation system is fucking bullshit. I'm in a game of kozelsk right now. I stop moving, wait for the compass bars to solidify into one. Take my shot on an enemy facing away from me about 50m. Aimed semi auto fire. I miss, miss again, and again. So this guy does a 180 with a ppsh from full standing position and headshots me. Now tell me how and why that is not bullshit? I literally alt tabbed to reply to this post.

[Frontliner]

I believe a member of the Reality team told me that it's six seconds and yeah I believe it.

There is no reason to "believe", I'm telling you straight up how it is. If you still think that you for sure know better than I do, well, the math required is a simple division, that's the only truth in this game that exists.

I stop moving, wait for the compass bars to solidify into one. Take my shot on an enemy facing away from me about 50m. Aimed semi auto fire. I miss, miss again, and again. So this guy does a 180 with a ppsh from full standing position and headshots me.

If you're missing, that's on you. If the PPSh was the one to kill you, that's indeed a lucky break he had, something the system is designed to avoid 99.9999% of the time, yet cannot be ruled out.

Now tell me how and why that is not bullshit?

However, it wasn't the PPSh that toasted you, it was a Dragunov.

The system works as intended.

[dcm]

However, it wasn't the PPSh that toasted you, it was a Dragunov.

Well that's even worse. I should've gotten the kill on the breacher atleast. Honestly I'd be less pissed off, if it was the ppsh, because I can understand the saturation of bullets heading my way. And yes, I've seen/been popped before by a ppsh burst from 100m+ before.

The system works as intended.

Intended to be what? Unfair? I've had more luck running and gunning than I ever did with waiting for my shots to settle down.

[Frontliner]

You're actually going on record saying that a Designated Marksman Rifle managing to headshot you at a distance of 100m is more bullshit gameplay-wise than someone wildly spraying with an SMG?

[dcm]

You're actually going on record saying that a Designated Marksman Rifle managing to headshot you at a distance of 100m is more bullshit gameplay-wise than someone wildly spraying with an SMG?

What's bullshit is that I did not kill the breacher atleast. The DMR had a clear shot advantage over me. I understand that. I assumed that it was the ppsh that killed me, because very little information was available, to me at the time. In PR, you rarely get to know who you killed, killed you, or how you got killed. I've been killed by submachine guns 100m away in even more bullshitty circumstances.

[Aleon]

Let me tell you(again) why the deviation system is fucking bullshit. I'm in a game of kozelsk right now. I stop moving, wait for the compass bars to solidify into one. Take my shot on an enemy facing away from me about 50m. Aimed semi auto fire. I miss, miss again, and again. So this guy does a 180 with a ppsh from full standing position and headshots me. Now tell me how and why that is not bullshit? I literally alt tabbed to reply to this post.

You keep bringing up cherry picked cases showing deviation screwing you over, but all this illustrates is that you don't understand why deviation exists. Deviation screws over everyone once in a while, not just you specifically, and that's kind of the point. I'm sure you could pick out plenty other of moments from the same round where you just aim at your target and hit without a problem.

If you have a random process where the outcome is not always a guaranteed success (hitting your target), the only way to increase your chances of success is to try many times. Either shoot a lot of bullets, or more importantly, have a lot of people shooting. Deviation is the most fundamental feature driving infantry teamwork in PR, because it puts an upper limit on how reliably a single person can kill enemies while increasing the combat effectiveness of groups. To get consistency from randomness you need many attempts, and the best way to get it is trough sticking with team mates.

All lack the heart and soul of PR.

I'm fairly convinced 80% of that heart and soul is just deviation. They lack deviation. I can just run around alone and kill entire squads in seconds. Without deviation, one's ability to click on people is a direct substitute for almost all advantages offered by teamwork when it comes to infantry vs infantry fighting.

[Grump/Gump.45]

I've been killed by submachine guns 100m away in even more bullshitty circumstances.

I have heard of Americans in the Pacific Theatre in WW2, one guy in particular got a headshot with a .45 ACP fired out of a Thompson on a concealed Japanese machine gun bunker. He set it to semi-auto and tapped the machine gunner. Bunker was silent after that, it was a single round fired that ended it.

Learn some science from the SNIPER 101 playlist made by my mentor first. Then come make your complaints backed by scientific evidence, they are going for realism and at this point in development they need data. Learn how to gather it, what to gather and learn some new complex terms. Science was always my favorite class no matter the subject(Chemistry, Biology, Physics). Although if I can't find a use for the information in war or its effects (ecosystem included) I naturally don't retain the information cause I have no reason to remember. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwG-D0H ... vDCIcEPxUn



Many factors of deviation, barrel itself, bio-mechanical movement, weapon rigidity to start. Ideally for a gun completely stationary you want the bullets to go right on top of where the last one hit.

For prone firing you could clamp an automatic firearm, put in a bore laser sight that makes a laser pointer come out of the barrel. Mark the laser dot with tape, then put in a mag and fire while still clamped. Check the grouping with the gun clamped compared to tape marker. Measure the maximum deviation from the barrel alone on a single spot, vibrations and such. Then apply it to moving gun around in game. 2 types of clamps would be needed, clamps bio-mechanically representing the arms elbows and the traditional style clamp.

If you were to frame that in a mock up computer screen, it would never leave the middle 1/3 of the screen.

What makes a bolt action so accurate aside from rifling is the harmonic tuning of the rifles, making a weapon have more rigidity to absorb these vibrations. The bedding of the barrel in the stock can be experimented on with folding up paper to close the small gap between barrel and stock bedding. There is even a barrel tension screw on any old bolt action rifles used in the 1900s have, this screw slightly changes the results on barrel vibration if you were to clamp a gun. ANY bolt action rifle can be improved to be more accurate, every guns condition will effect its accuracy due to how it handles vibrations differently. Broken stock, rotting wood stock and unlaminated wood stocks having less density.

Compare that to what a poorly machined submachine gun or rifle can do, mag rattle is where it starts giving feeding issues, then separation in the upper/lower receiver having some wiggle. Anywhere that has give on the weapon, making it not sturdy needs to be corrected. Basically you want it tight but not too tight.

For deviation of MOA, Minute of angle same process. Minute is a spatial measurement here, not time measurement. MOA(Minute of Angle) is 60 minutes per 1 degree out of 360 degrees on a compass. Very small measurements. Start with a boresight laser mark where the bore or barrel is actually aimed, then aim in with your scope at set zeroed distances and see where it hits when you shoot in comparison to the bore. This will tell you where your sight is aimed in relation to the barrel, how well that sight does clamped for putting every shot right on top of where the last landed. This is for sight deviation or zeroing, which I have noticed on the L85 not hitting exactly where the scope reticule is aimed. That could be considered an in-game issue or a real life bullpulp issue.

[dcm]

snip

These cherry picked examples, happen more and more frequently. And not just when I get killed. There are kills I feel like I should not have made, because of the deviation system.

Deviation is not the heart and soul of PR. No, it's the gameplay. Squad, HLL and PS. They all lack the essence of PR. Those games are bland and boring. Let me put it this way; PR is like that small mom and pop restaurant that makes really good high quality food. Sure somethings they make, dont turn out right. And sometimes the food is over salted, over seasoned. But you still keep coming back because it's some good *** food. Squad is like the big casual chain restaurant that moves into the neighborhood. Has lots of money behind it. Advertises itself like crazy. And promises you an amazing experience. Except all their food is frozen and premade offsite.

[Nate.]

These cherry picked examples, happen more and more frequently. And not just when I get killed. There are kills I feel like I should not have made, because of the deviation system.

Deviation is not the heart and soul of PR. No, it's the gameplay. Squad, HLL and PS. They all lack the essence of PR. Those games are bland and boring. Let me put it this way; PR is like that small mom and pop restaurant that makes really good high quality food. Sure somethings they make, dont turn out right. And sometimes the food is over salted, over seasoned. But you still keep coming back because it's some good *** food. Squad is like the big casual chain restaurant that moves into the neighborhood. Has lots of money behind it. Advertises itself like crazy. And promises you an amazing experience. Except all their food is frozen and premade offsite.

Deviation is *the* core gameplay mechanic of infantry in PR. Aleon is 100% correct.

If you have troubles hitting stuff, try using less auto, pick better positions and take your time to make your shots count. You will go down in funny ways, but that's why you play as a squad and have a medic around. If you can't be sure to win an engagement, don't engange.

[dcm]

Deviation is *the* core gameplay mechanic of infantry in PR. Aleon is 100% correct.

If you have troubles hitting stuff, try using less auto, pick better positions and take your time to make your shots count. You will go down in funny ways, but that's why you play as a squad and have a medic around. If you can't be sure to win an engagement, don't engange.

So what you're telling me is that 'deviation' is why pr exists? Because no other game has a deviation mechanic to your guys' liking? That's kinda sad.

Then what was with all that talk 16-17 years ago about Project Reality being the defined teamwork experience? I still remember the R-devs coming on the bf2 communities forums, hyping their minimod up. 'A more tactical battlefield 2 experience.' Was the tagline back then.

[Killer2354]

Honestly, I like the recoil changes. It fixes my entire gripe with the buggy recoil of this game: that semi is inherently worse than full auto. Now, semi actually has a use even in close, and people thinking they can just mag dump their entire weapon at ranges they really shouldn't be get punished.

If you think recoil is bad, tell me: have you actually tested weapons on a local server and checked to see how your pattern or spread stacks up at different ranges? Do you really expect a mag dump to hit a man-sized target with every bullet at 20m? 30m? Take this picture as an example:



This is a test of firing the Type 56-1 from a standing position against a wall with firing ~6 rounds per burst for an entire mag with maybe a second to pause if I'm being generous. The overall spread of the mag is larger than a human-sized target, but most of these rounds would likely hit a standing target.



This is the same weapon, same range, but dumping the entire mag. The spread opens up, but only by a little bit. The major contributing factor at this point is the horizontal recoil throwing aim off. Vertical recoil is hard to control, but at this range, you're really pushing it to dump your entire mag.



This is the first test at 15m. Pretty much every round would be on target. If your first 6 rounds do not kill your target, you're probably already dead at this range.



This is the same test as the first test, but with the L85A2. Almost every round would have hit your target at this range, even with the harder to control recoil of using an optic. The BUIS is even easier because of the way aim works between optics and dots, and I could comfortably control the entire mag dump with the BUIS at this range. The optic, not so much.

My question is this: for the people arguing that the recoil changes are bad, what about it is bad? People are acting like they should be able to mag dump their gun up to 30m and land every round on target, or potentially only use optics and don't consider using ironsights or BUIS at all if they're fighting in super close. That, or people really do not understand the ranges they're actually fighting in.

[Frontliner]

What's bullshit is that I did not kill the breacher atleast. The DMR had a clear shot advantage over me. I understand that. I assumed that it was the ppsh that killed me, because very little information was available, to me at the time.

You were saying verbatim that getting killed by the Dragunov hurt your feefees more than getting dinked randomly in the head by an SMG. Claiming the opposite with regards to the post in question is you making shit up.

I'm very excited for the - no doubt! - soon to appear 100m+ SMG run kill compilation if they were happening with the frequency you're claiming. I would argue thought that it might be in your best interest to check the demo first however to not find out after the face you've made another "oopsie" in your *ahem* information gathering.

Then what was with all that talk 16-17 years ago about Project Reality being the defined teamwork experience? I still remember the R-devs coming on the bf2 communities forums, hyping their minimod up. 'A more tactical battlefield 2 experience.' Was the tagline back then.

I would argue that a lot of stuff has been said over the course of almost 2 decades, and the ones running the show back then are not the ones running the show right now. Rhino is probably the only person on the team left to remember these words being spoken, if they were, that is.

I personally find it a bit nasty of you (trying) to hold any of the current members accountable to words that were uttered by different people under completely different circumstances from over a decade ago, as though we are trying to deceive.

[SemlerPDX]

...
Then what was with all that talk 16-17 years ago about Project Reality being the defined teamwork experience? I still remember the R-devs coming on the bf2 communities forums, hyping their minimod up. 'A more tactical battlefield 2 experience.' Was the tagline back then.

Sorry, but how is it that all the things that make PR different from BF2, including the *core* gameplay mechanic for infantry in PR that is deviation, does not hold up to the tagline of 'A more tactical battlefield 2 experience' (even to this day)?

to quote Aleon re. teamwork forced through deviation mechanics limiting a single soldier's capabilities & favoring team engagements FTW:

Deviation is the most fundamental feature driving infantry teamwork in PR, because it puts an upper limit on how reliably a single person can kill enemies while increasing the combat effectiveness of groups. To get consistency from randomness you need many attempts, and the best way to get it is trough sticking with team mates.

[dcm]

@Frontliner
At first I was under the impression that the PPSH user was responsible for my death. Due to the lack of information in real time that PR provides. And due to prior experiences with the PPSH submachine gun being able to reach out and hit targets at such ranges that I was engaging the enemy from.

I was upset, because I felt cheated out of the kill against the PPSH user, which I so rightfully deserved. Because, I did play by the rules and work within the current deviation system. It is not my fault that the deviation system robs players of the feelings of legitimacy, integrity and fairness in a gunfight. The SVD user had me bested. I was not aware of his presence. Until after witnessing the evidence provided.

You are the only one legitimately angered here. It is as if, you can not take any criticism, nor feedback. No matter how minor, without working yourself up into a self-righteous rage.


@semler
No. Deviation is and will always be a detrimental gameplay mechanic. Even the modern generation who plays games like fortnite and call of duty. They, themselves complain about the unfair nature of deviation in the newest games. The only games that do deviation right, are games where it is possible to work around it, especially for longer range aimed shots.

What makes PR great; is it's gameplay. In spite of all of PR's flaws(deviation being chief among them). Project Reality is still a fun and enjoyable game.

Does PR need improvements? Yes. Should certain gameplay mechanics be removed entirely? Maybe. Will our friend frontliner listen? Probably not.