Infantry weapon damage changes

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Bonecrusher76
Posts: 40
Joined: 2016-01-17 19:52

Re: Infantry weapon damage changes

Post by Bonecrusher76 »

Frontliner wrote: That doesn't mean a Sniper should take 3 shots to kill a person, you need to be smart about what you're doing when game designing: A Sniper fires once every 4 seconds, has an insanely long deviation timer after moving, game design dictates these drawbacks call for a compromise somewhere - and since 7.62 doesn't usually one-shot(or at least used to) on body armour a Sniper rifle can do just that to make up for all the other drawbacks - to give it a fucking purpose.

Now Zwilling declares the cartridge to be the ONLY factor in the damage calculation and what happens?
The Israelis get a Sniper Rifle with 5 shots and all the negative traits of a sniper, whereas MEC carry a rifle with the same caliber as standard issue without any sniper drawbacks. Instead the G3 has 4x as many rounds, no major deviation time in-between shots, faster settle time and easier handling. You can even put it on full-auto! Is it fair in any shape or form to make such a specialised and limited weapon useless compared to the run-of-the-mill-gun of the opposition? I say no it isn't, it's non-sense, and that's the core criticism I have with this system.
True, from a realism perspective it makes sense. But this is still a game.

I agree completely. The 7.62 sniper rifles are absolutely worthless now, and not realistic in purpose or behavior. A single medic can now protect an entire squad (at range) from a skilled sniper. As can patches and crates. Enemy HATs and AA behind enemy lines are no longer countered by the sniper rifle, and have free range on advancing friendly armor/aircraft.

PR now exists in a "realistic" world where every enemy soldier has ballistic plates, but NATO snipers won't use "magical AP rounds" or more powerful cartridges, because that wouldn't be "realistic." How is it realistic for a NATO sniper to fire 12 times while an enemy medic heals and laughs?

The old sniper kit was NEVER hard to counter. The people that complain about it only lost to it because of their bad tactics and their team's poor coordination. A smoke grenade, a counter-sniper, mortar team, cas, or even a determined rifleman could always stop an enemy sniper.

I have no problem with making the weapons more powerful and the gameplay less forgiving, but the massive sniper nerf based on "realism" is anything but.
Last edited by Bonecrusher76 on 2017-06-02 00:02, edited 4 times in total.
Allahu Akbar
Posts: 109
Joined: 2017-04-30 15:17

Re: Infantry weapon damage changes

Post by Allahu Akbar »

Bonecrusher76 wrote:I agree completely. The 7.62 sniper rifles are absolutely worthless now, and not realistic in purpose or behavior. A single medic can now protect an entire squad (at range) from a skilled sniper. As can patches and crates. Enemy HATs and AA behind enemy lines are no longer countered by the sniper rifle, and have free range on advancing friendly armor/aircraft.
A squad is what protects the squad from a "skilled" sniper. You posted yourself that one can counter the sniper by smoke and such(including "a determined rifleman").

If you want to take on a squad of people without the skill to do it; bring more people.

As for enemy HAT/AA:
1. by the time you notice, they already caused damage.
2. you should not have let them get there in first place, or sit there undetected(which is the real reason why they can do some damage; as any regular rifleman can counter them too).
3. one less HAT/AA in front lines.
4. Generally sniper kits are wasted by idiots sitting in middle of nowhere, most likely without microphone. They would not be capable of countering much of anything.

Damage nerf has nothing to do with whether sniper kit "counters" them. Because they will be sent back to ammo crate to reload patches even if you do not kill in one shot; and you have more than enough time to line up headshot if you see them aiming(HAT does not like it when you move or turn). A lot of people tend to forget that people can bleed to death in this game. As long as the target is not cheating by using some setting to remove black and white effect, a shot to upper legs(within certain ranges) is nearly as good as a kill.
Bonecrusher76 wrote: PR now exists in a "realistic" world where every enemy soldier has ballistic plates, but NATO snipers won't use "magical AP rounds" or more powerful cartridges, because that wouldn't be "realistic." How is it realistic for a NATO sniper to fire 12 times while an enemy medic heals and laughs?
.338 is used by NATO.
Of course NATO sniper is totally underpowered while 7.62x51 MEC sniper is perfectly fine, is that it?
Bonecrusher76 wrote: The old sniper kit was NEVER hard to counter. The people that complain about it only lost to it because of their bad tactics and their team's poor coordination. A smoke grenade, a counter-sniper, mortar team, cas, or even a determined rifleman could always stop an enemy sniper.
Nobody lost to it; it was just a n00b-magnet, where people join squad to grab kit, then proceed to go off to middle of nowhere and die without doing anything or gaining any intel on enemy.
You can still see same thing with the likes of .338 but less-so on obviously-nerfed ones.
Perhaps one day people will catch on that they need to aim carefully with most sniper kit.
Bonecrusher76 wrote: I have no problem with making the weapons more powerful and the gameplay less forgiving, but the massive sniper nerf based on "realism" is anything but.
There is a lot of wrong in both realism and gameplay with current damage model, but sniper nerf is not one.

Value of sniper kit(from gathering intel, which stops working when enemies are smoking you after you fired, and taking out important/stationary targets such as TOW/AA/Crewman, all of which would lose effectiveness even if not downed in one hit) is not lost simply because of a bit less damage + poor aim(snipers have GLTD for range finding).

If damage nerf is such a huge problem then lower-damage sniper rifles can have better handling instead.

The biggest nerf to Sniper kit is pistol damage.

As always, if you just wanted to get some kills, use marksman kit.
Last edited by Allahu Akbar on 2017-06-02 07:07, edited 21 times in total.
Heavy Death
Posts: 1284
Joined: 2012-10-21 10:51

Re: Infantry weapon damage changes

Post by Heavy Death »

The end accuracy is what sets a G3 and sniper rifles apart. But idk what the values are, so if G3 gets the same grouping after 250-300m something should be changed. Most likely nerf everything but snipers.
Allahu Akbar
Posts: 109
Joined: 2017-04-30 15:17

Re: Infantry weapon damage changes

Post by Allahu Akbar »

7.62x51 effectiveness against unarmored target:

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008/Intl/Roberts.pdf

Two types of M80: steel and copper jacket.
Steel one has better damage(much larger permanent wound cavity) but only above 2800fps reliable.

This is why M14 should not do one-shot kill on unarmored target anywhere outside 10m or so.
A nerf to one-shot black and white to torso and maybe 75 damage to upper leg makes sense both from gameplay and realism.
Bonecrusher76
Posts: 40
Joined: 2016-01-17 19:52

Re: Infantry weapon damage changes

Post by Bonecrusher76 »

Allahu Akbar wrote: Nobody lost to it; it was just a n00b-magnet

There is a lot of wrong in both realism and gameplay with current damage model, but sniper nerf is not one.

Value of sniper kit(from gathering intel, which stops working when enemies are smoking you after you fired, and taking out important/stationary targets such as TOW/AA/Crewman, all of which would lose effectiveness even if not downed in one hit) is not lost simply because of a bit less damage + poor aim(snipers have GLTD for range finding).

You think snipers have GLTD? (They don't). You have obviously not played the kit in a very very long time. Your bias against it is obvious. Let those of us who have actually been playing it for 10+ years give our informed and balanced opinion about the changes.
Allahu Akbar
Posts: 109
Joined: 2017-04-30 15:17

Re: Infantry weapon damage changes

Post by Allahu Akbar »

Bonecrusher76 wrote:You think snipers have GLTD? (They don't). You have obviously not played the kit in a very very long time. Your bias against it is obvious. Let those of us who have actually been playing it for 10+ years give our informed and balanced opinion about the changes.
Spotter has them, therefore Sniper has GLTD.

You have just outed yourself as the typical solosniper without spotter, that also explains why you have such hard time against a squad.

I believe informed and balanced is not synonymous with ignorant and biased, which your opinion is.
And if you played PR for 10+ years then I call bullshit if you did not know Snipers used to have GLTD before spotter kit existed.
Last edited by Allahu Akbar on 2017-06-02 17:47, edited 1 time in total.
Bonecrusher76
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Joined: 2016-01-17 19:52

Re: Infantry weapon damage changes

Post by Bonecrusher76 »

They used to have GTLD, a long time ago. But they haven't in quite some time.

I agree that there should be more work done to encourage the use of a spotter. Specifically, I think allowing a spotter to also have the squad leader functions (deploying assets) would encourage the creation of useful sniper squads.


The point remains, a G3 rifleman should not be more useful at range than a sniper, and that is the current state of things.
Last edited by Bonecrusher76 on 2017-06-02 18:08, edited 4 times in total.
Allahu Akbar
Posts: 109
Joined: 2017-04-30 15:17

Re: Infantry weapon damage changes

Post by Allahu Akbar »

Bonecrusher76 wrote:
The point remains, a G3 rifleman should not be more useful at range than a sniper, and that is the current state of things.
They are not more useful at range.

G3(not SG-1) have standard rifle deviation, "zeroing"(bullet drop starts much earlier), and low zoom even if you ignore tracers.

G3 does have certain obvious advantages under 200m but that is to be expected when comparing a bolt action rifle to semi/full-auto battle rifle.

Handling of lower-damage sniper rifle can be improved but G3 does not magically become god gun at range(it even does lower damage at extreme ranges compared to before, as far as I can tell).
Mouthpiece
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Joined: 2010-05-24 10:18

Re: Infantry weapon damage changes

Post by Mouthpiece »

Why the hell are people still discussing this? This thread became a sort of a circlejerk long time ago. Noone cares about real life statistics as this is a video game. DEVs didn't answer why did they implement this shitty system before heavy testing beforehand and thus they broke SMG's, pistols and shotties, and also made a lot of maps unbalanced (including the whole INS, though as I dislike this mode It's ok with me). PR vets have spoken already, and like 99% dislike these changes. Rest can go massage themselves.

And it has been said - this system will stay, although there will be some changes. It's really, really sad. I wish old DEVs would have kept some kind of checks and balances system where they could override the decisions of newer DEVs. I know it sounds stupid, but I don't know any other way to control them (this hasn't been the only "bad" update - the old map layers with assets have been changed to almost only INF, and it sucks because variety died, but it's a different topic).
fecht_niko
Posts: 347
Joined: 2013-06-29 13:42

Re: Infantry weapon damage changes

Post by fecht_niko »

Can one of the lead whatever DEVs (aka Mineral) tell us if this shit is gonna be reverted or not? Some maps became unplaybale for INF.
Stop adding useless shit only to polish your portfolio. You fucking destryoed the game.
Last edited by fecht_niko on 2017-06-02 21:35, edited 1 time in total.
Vista
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Joined: 2011-04-30 10:36

Re: Infantry weapon damage changes

Post by Vista »

:^^^^^^^))))))))
Allahu Akbar
Posts: 109
Joined: 2017-04-30 15:17

Re: Infantry weapon damage changes

Post by Allahu Akbar »

Mouthpiece wrote:Noone cares about real life statistics as this is a video game.
Tell that to the people, from nearly a decade ago, who tried to use realistic ballistics but was only stopped by bad tracer codes.
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... ifles.html

Use data from above thread.

Combine with this:
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f10-pr ... apons.html

We can Make PR Great Again.
Last edited by Allahu Akbar on 2017-06-03 00:06, edited 1 time in total.
Bonecrusher76
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Joined: 2016-01-17 19:52

Re: Infantry weapon damage changes

Post by Bonecrusher76 »

Allahu Akbar wrote: We can Make PR Great Again.
PR was great before. I still say revert all the changes, and then slightly buff the 7.62 battle rifles. The fact is, body armor is not at all realistically represented, and it is not possible to correctly model it on this engine.
Vista
Posts: 1266
Joined: 2011-04-30 10:36

Re: Infantry weapon damage changes

Post by Vista »

Bonecrusher76 wrote:PR was great before. I still say revert all the changes, and then slightly buff the 7.62 battle rifles. The fact is, body armor is not at all realistically represented, and it is not possible to correctly model it on this engine.
I agree, those seem like nice changes. Someone should compile a list of changes and give it to the DEVs so they can make some wise balance decisions.

Anyone up for it?
DogACTUAL
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Re: Infantry weapon damage changes

Post by DogACTUAL »

While i mostly agree with you that the changes have some flaws, if you continue to be so arrogant as to imply the DEVs are stupid and need your wise guiding hand because you are so much smarter, i doubt they will start listening to you.
Allahu Akbar
Posts: 109
Joined: 2017-04-30 15:17

Re: Infantry weapon damage changes

Post by Allahu Akbar »

DogACTUAL wrote:While i mostly agree with you that the changes have some flaws, if you continue to be so arrogant as to imply the DEVs are stupid and need your wise guiding hand because you are so much smarter, i doubt they will start listening to you.
Well, devs not having guiding hand(of player feedback) is what got us into this mess in first place.
ALOIXIA
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Joined: 2017-06-11 12:21

Re: Infantry weapon damage changes

Post by ALOIXIA »

If use base on joule energy the pistol bullet is so low damage probably use joules/30 = damage
600 joules 9mm = 20 it just perfect damage for pistol bullet class, rifle class also good.
ALOIXIA
Posts: 7
Joined: 2017-06-11 12:21

Re: Infantry weapon damage changes

Post by ALOIXIA »

A funny thing when I'm use joules energy to all weapons..

Energy = 1/2mv^2
Damage = joule/30

7.62x39
Bullet mass = 8 g
Muzzle velocity = 738 m/s
= 1/2*0.008*738^2
= 2,178 joule/30
Damage = 72

uuhmm that ok, try to do the bigger bullets :24_smoker

PG-7V
Warhead mass = 2.255 kg
Muzzle velocity = 120 m/s
Maximum velocity = 300 m/s
= 1/2*2.255*120^2 ~ 1/2*2.255*300^2
= 16,236 ~ 101,475 joules/30
Damage = 541 ~ 3,382
Charge weight (TNT: 5.0 MJ/kg) = 0.38 kg
= 5MJ*0.38
= 1,900,000 joule/30
Explosive damage = 63,333

oooh..try it bigger :shock:

125 mm Russian tank shells (HE-Shell)
Projectile mass = 23 kg
Muzzle velocity = 760 m/s
= 1/2*23*760^2
= 6,642,400 joule/30
Damage = 221,413
Charge weight (TNT: 5.0 MJ/kg) = 5 kg
= 5MJ*5
= 25,000,000 joule/30
Explosive damage = 833,333

OMG ?( ° ? °|||)?
Bonecrusher76
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Re: Infantry weapon damage changes

Post by Bonecrusher76 »

So, is this going to get fixed?
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