Infantry weapon damage changes

[viirusiiseli]

Yes.

1. Revert

2. Buff 7.62 MBR (and possibly marksman rifles)

3. Possibly make changes to SMGs? I never used them much, but nobody complained about them before, and they didn't seem unbalanced to me.

4. Did the smoke trail blindness on the TOWs ever get fixed?

5. Whatever happened to fragmentation RPG rounds?

6. A system to make an enemy go "dead dead" would add tremendously to the gameplay dynamics. Headshots should do this from all rifles. I was told that my idea for "arresting" people isn't possible in the engine, but there has to be something similar that could be implemented.

7. Buff the infantry grenade launchers; they never were very useful.

8. Fix all turrets since the revert from the inertia change left them broken

[DogACTUAL]

9. Revert the new ridicolous coax machine gun overheat.

[Rhino]

5. Whatever happened to fragmentation RPG rounds?

They are done and finished, but their implementation is being blocked by the management because "no proper kit geoms" and other tiny "issues" like that were "placeholders" are some how unacceatable...

I personally must admit I've pretty much given up on trying to get them implemented, been trying for two years with the team initially saying they really wanted them, but after I finished them, a huge brick wall was built stopping their implementation and the management doing nothing to try and bring down that wall, only building it taller each time it is brought up....

One of the first changes made to BF2 with PR mini-mod v0.1 was to increase weapon damage. The effect made PR brutal, and more deadly. It forced players to really think about crossing an open road. The change made gameplay more realistic. The reason we have been playing PR for more than a decade and still love to play it is because it forces realistic gameplay. PR forces us to think, communicate, and act as a team to win. That is the spirit of PR.
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This patch makes gameplay unrealistic and unbalanced. Standard rifles are ineffective at medium and long ranges, movement is restricted because of the return of 1 hit incapacitations, and certain factions are seriously unbalanced.

This patch does make ballistics more realistic on paper, but It does so by making terminal ballistics more unrealistic in outcome. We appreciate the work done by the Devs in adding new content to the game. Damage drop off at range might be a good idea, but we believe that there are unintended consequences of the change to infantry weapons damage as implemented.

1.4.8 Forces Unrealistic Gameplay

Before this patch, with an M4, or an AK74, or an AK47 one could effectively incapacitate an enemy player wearing body armor. In 1.4.8 the player cannot do this; because they must make 4 hits to the chest at 300m, on a moving target, in a few seconds.

With this patch, we no longer have to think before crossing a road. The danger is gone at medium ranges.

There is one exception to this for small arms in the machine gun and other 7.62x51mm weapons. So, all a squad need do is make sure there is not a machine gun. If there is no machine gun, the squad can have a leisurely stroll across whatever distant open field or road or river they wish. Each player absorbing three bullets or more as they do. At a minimum, any player in this patch can usually get to cover before being hit by round 4. The game is now less about fire and move, and more about knowing how far the enemy is and counting how many times you have been shot.

In effect, any enemy that shoots at the squad at distance with a standard rifle is ineffective, and only reveals their position. So, no intelligent player with a standard weapon will shoot at distance. There is a mantra we use when we squad lead ”Don’t shoot at it if you can’t kill or suppress it”. We are now in the position of telling everyone not to shoot. The unrealism of a rifle being ineffective at 300m, or even 600m, should be obvious.

At long range, the numbers speak for themselves. Every standard issue rifle takes 5 or more shots to incapacitate an armored player in the chest at 600m. Russia’s standard rifle takes 11 shots. At long range, standard rifles are completely ineffective. Unless you have a G3, which maintains pre-patch damage values with the 7.62x51mm round, except at close range which is 1 hit to incapacitate to the pelvis and unarmored torso.

While most long range engagements are made ineffective using standard rifles, 7.62x51 damage values make most engagements too deadly. One hit kills to the pelvis and unarmored targets makes movement ineffective, because a player will use the advantage of 7.62x51 and stay in one place, waiting for the 1 hit kill opportunity. The player without the advantage of 7.62x51 damage values will not move at all when threatened by it. We witnessed this happen last time 1 hit kills were possible with headshots. It drastically changed gameplay for the worse. This patch has simultaneously made long range fire mostly ineffective, and movement to contact ineffective.

1.4.8 is Unbalanced

The MEC standard rifle vs the NATO standard rifle is the starkest example of this patch making PR unbalanced. Kashan is one of the oldest maps still on rotation, and still very popular. On Kashan, at any range, the G3 does more damage. At 50m, 2 shots to the chest incapacitate vs. 3 shots from the M16. At 300m, 2 shots vs 4. At 600m, 4 shots vs 7 from the M16. Any discussion of rate of fire or recoil seems to us to be a non-argument given these numbers, but some think it is a good argument, so we will address it.

On Kashan engagements occur between the bunkers, and from the bunkers to the mountains, so always more than 300m. A BLUFOR rifleman at north bunkers must hit a MEC rifleman on south bunkers 4x in the chest to incapacitate him, while the MEC rifleman needs 2 hits only. More importantly than unbalancing damage, this allows mec an unfair advantage in their freedom of movement from cover to cover. Movement and fire are the cornerstone of infantry combat in PR.

Unarmored targets are even more unbalanced. Again, the numbers speak for themselves, but for effect: On Sbeneh, a G3 1 shot incap to chest at 50m vs AK47s 2 shots; 2 shots at 300m vs 4 shots (or if the unarmored player has 10% damage from a fall, 1 shot incap from G3 at 300m); and 2 shots to kill at 600m. The rebel rifleman would have to hit the MEC player 10 times to incap at 600m.

RU vs NATO and RU vs IDF are the only maps balanced in this patch, given the relative similarities in damage values between 5.56x45 and 5.45x39. Devs should play closer attention to these maps. Clearly MEC and unarmored faction maps are unbalanced.

Recommendations

Change the damage values back to the old incapacitate values. 1.4.8 infantry damage changes are not just a content update, they are a gameplay and balance change, and should be treated as such. Neither gameplay or balance needed drastic fixing before.

PR is realism in gameplay, not in detail. 1.4.8 has made gameplay unrealistic and unbalanced.

That said, If you will not roll back the changes entirely, we suggest that you make the following adjustments:

Changes that make standard rifles slightly less effective at longer range is a gameplay change that may have positive effects on gameplay realism. It must however be balanced between factions, and if damages at longer ranges are left as drastically low as they are in 1.4.8, gameplay will remain unrealistic as detailed in this post.


Dmg suggested for all standard Rifles, Squad MGs, and Marksman:

Minimum 2 hits to incap at any range.
Maximum 2 hits at 50m.
Maximum 3 hits at 300m.
Maximum 4 hits at 600m.

Summary

This patch misunderstands the spirit and intent of Project Reality. PR is and has always been about Reality in effect and gameplay. This patch is reality in detail and on paper.

1.4.8 has made PR unrealistic and unbalanced.

Please:

Decrease all damage values drastically for 7.62x51 in standard rifles (G3, FAL, M14).
Remove the one shot incapacitate for all weapons (except possibly sniper rifles).
Increase damage for 5.45x39, 5.56x45, and 7.62x39, especially at range.
Increase damage for pistol and SMG rounds at close range.
Increase damage for buckshot at close range.

Thank you,

A bunch of guys still waiting for Fast Ropes.

Not a bad assessment Cougar, Cheers

[YAK-R]

8. Fix all turrets since the revert from the inertia change left them broken

A little inertia is good, before was waaaay too much. The tiny bit left over feels comfy. There would be a problem if it wasn't universally applied, or based on some sort of realism. (turret stablisation) [Also not saying i know if it's universally applied or not]

[Souls Of Mischief]

They are done and finished, but their implementation is being blocked by the management because "no proper kit geoms" and other tiny "issues" like that were "placeholders" are some how unacceatable...

I personally must admit I've pretty much given up on trying to get them implemented, been trying for two years with the team initially saying they really wanted them, but after I finished them, a huge brick wall was built stopping their implementation and the management doing nothing to try and bring down that wall, only building it taller each time it is brought up....

RIP dream.

TY for your work, though.

[Rabbit]

They are done and finished, but their implementation is being blocked by the management because "no proper kit geoms" and other tiny "issues" like that were "placeholders" are some how unacceatable...

I personally must admit I've pretty much given up on trying to get them implemented, been trying for two years with the team initially saying they really wanted them, but after I finished them, a huge brick wall was built stopping their implementation and the management doing nothing to try and bring down that wall, only building it taller each time it is brought up....

Jesus, still?

[Mushrooms]

They are done and finished, but their implementation is being blocked by the management because "no proper kit geoms" and other tiny "issues" like that were "placeholders" are some how unacceatable...

I personally must admit I've pretty much given up on trying to get them implemented, been trying for two years with the team initially saying they really wanted them, but after I finished them, a huge brick wall was built stopping their implementation and the management doing nothing to try and bring down that wall, only building it taller each time it is brought up...

If that's how internal communication is, does that mean there are more controversies in PR's future?

[Allahu Akbar]

A pistol round at 30m-50m in combat?

...you were engaging him from way too far away. The scorpion is not a main battle rifle, and no one would really want one IRL over an AK.

Its a little sub-machine-gun that only shoots a weak pistol round, that is only good for close range, like 15m, since at longer range it would spray rounds allover.

The weapon is accurately represented here, but maybe the kit needs a different one.

Unless, perhaps the DEVs intended the kit to only be able to use its weapon in a limited way, like defensively, or CQB, then it works perfectly.

I tested MP7 against german rifleman torso and it took ~10 rounds to wound, point blank.

Could have sworn stones at least used to kill people in less hits.

[DesertFox284]

I tested MP7 against german rifleman torso and it took ~10 rounds to wound, point blank.

Could have sworn stones at least used to kill people in less hits.

I think (99% sure) it still takes less than 10 stones to incapacitate someone. C:


As for the weapon damage situation, how about removing body armor completely as it seems to be the very cause of the problem. It's such an obscure feature not many people understand anyways, and I don't think removing it would ruin the gameplay more than current damage system.

Then, make 7.62 do less than 100 damage (maybe 80) so it's a 2 hit kill, while leaving 5.56 and similar rifles with current damage (also 2 hit kill, albeit less damage), and finally tweak the damage drop off so that 7.62 still kills in 2 shots far out while 5.56 takes 3.

This would give low caliber-high rpm weapons a slight advantage in cqb and slower rof high caliber weapons an advantage over range, without completely murdering game balance.

Could also keep pistol cartridges lethal at close range but make damage drop off very severe so they are useless past 50-100m.

[Bonecrusher76]

(Fragmentation RPGs) are done and finished, but their implementation is being blocked by the management because "no proper kit geoms" and other tiny "issues" like that were "placeholders" are some how unacceatable...

No proper kit? Give it to the LAT. The LAT should have a weapon slot that launches HE and another weapon slot that launches Frag. Even if this causes them to have a few more rockets it would be just fine as long as the Frag rockets don't damage armor.

Mobile artillery would also be cool. Like a humvee towing a howitzer with 20 rounds that reloads at repair station like an APC.

Revert damage model and start working from there.

[Rhino]

No proper kit?

No, as per the bit you quoted, I said "no proper kit geoms", which are all the bits of kit a player wears when using a kit. Yet the other RPGs are being used without the player having the proper RPGs in their sack either

[DogACTUAL]

If everything you said is true (bc there are always at least 2 sides to a story), someone needs to tell management to get their priorities straight.

Also could you please clarify what happened to the thermobaric warhead?
And how would the thermobaric warhead work ingame, meaning what would the mechanics be to differentiate it from the fragmentation warhead for example? Would it actually be more effective in enclosed environments like cavitations and rooms? Hard to believe that the refractor engine would allow to do something like that.

[Rabbit]

If everything you said is true (bc there are always at least 2 sides to a story), someone needs to tell management to get their priorities straight.

Also could you please clarify what happened to the thermobaric warhead?
And how would the thermobaric warhead work ingame, meaning what would the mechanics be to differentiate it from the fragmentation warhead for example? Would it actually be more effective in enclosed environments like cavitations and rooms? Hard to believe that the refractor engine would allow to do something like that.

Went so far as to make a public poll on it. You can see which devs voted which way.
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f10-pr ... etics.html

[Rhino]

Went so far as to make a public poll on it. You can see which devs voted which way.
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f10-pr ... etics.html

Indeed but that didn't sway them either and after 2yrs+ I'm kinda tired of trying to get this through the proper channels.....

Also could you please clarify what happened to the thermobaric warhead?
And how would the thermobaric warhead work ingame, meaning what would the mechanics be to differentiate it from the fragmentation warhead for example? Would it actually be more effective in enclosed environments like cavitations and rooms? Hard to believe that the refractor engine would allow to do something like that.

The plan was to try and make the explosion go through walls kinda, but we haven't managed to get that to work so far

Worst case scenario is it will just have an explosion that kills infantry instantly in a 7m or so radius but doesn't do much damage outside of that.

[Bonecrusher76]

No, as per the bit you quoted, I said "no proper kit geoms", which are all the bits of kit a player wears when using a kit. Yet the other RPGs are being used without the player having the proper RPGs in their sack either

Wait a minute, you are telling me that we don't have frag RPGs because of the visual aesthetics of the player's backpack!? If PR players cared about minute graphic details, we would play one of the other games with WAY better graphics (Like Squad).

I am of the opinion that I want features/weapons even if the models aren't perfect. Give me a frag RPG even if the in game model shows it as an HE, or an Eryx or whatever. I don't care if the in game model shows it as a banana.

[Rabbit]

Wait a minute, you are telling me that we don't have frag RPGs because of the visual aesthetics of the player's backpack!? If PR players cared about minute graphic details, we would play one of the other games with WAY better graphics (Like Squad).

I am of the opinion that I want features/weapons even if the models aren't perfect. Give me a frag RPG even if the in game model shows it as an HE, or an Eryx or whatever. I don't care if the in game model shows it as a banana.

Well that is how a majority of the community and dev team voted, yet here we are.