Civilian penalties not apparent enough

[rogdozz]

I've noticed lately that more and more BLUFOR players don't even care about killing civilians, they'll just mow you down even if you're standing in the middle of the road with your hands up. This ruins some tactics (for example parking bomb car in a compound and hanging out near it as a civilian, waiting for tank to come by) and makes things less fun in general.

I think a lot of newer players just dont understand that there is a penalty for killing civilians, can we have something in the HUD that lets them know? We already have a warning after you kill a civilian but it doesn't make clear that you will actually be penalized for it

[ismaelassassin]

they already get a message on screen indicating that they just shot a civilian

[rogdozz]

they already get a message on screen indicating that they just shot a civilian

That’s not enough, they probably think it’s just a meaningless message as a gimmick for role playing.

[InfantryGamer42]

So, message needs to be changed to mention direct penalties of killing civilans?

[lespyd]

I think he's saying something like

"You have killed a civilian. Your respawn timer has increased by X seconds, and your team's unknown cache intelligence has decreased."

[jenson]

I've noticed lately that more and more BLUFOR players don't even care about killing civilians, they'll just mow you down even if you're standing in the middle of the road with your hands up. This ruins some tactics (for example parking bomb car in a compound and hanging out near it as a civilian, waiting for tank to come by) and makes things less fun in general.

I think a lot of newer players just dont understand that there is a penalty for killing civilians, can we have something in the HUD that lets them know? We already have a warning after you kill a civilian but it doesn't make clear that you will actually be penalized for it

From my experience, most of the people that don't care are already veteran players, mostly APC/TANK players because they know they will get the intel they need regardless of how many civis they kill

[rogdozz]

I think he's saying something like

"You have killed a civilian. Your respawn timer has increased by X seconds, and your team's unknown cache intelligence has decreased."

Yes, this is what I mean. Maybe (and I know this sounds pointless but I think it makes a difference) also make it so your kit automatically gets dropped when you kill a civilian - its not really a penalty but just a way to make you stop and think for a second, and pay attention to the message

From my experience, most of the people that don't care are already veteran players, mostly APC/TANK players because they know they will get the intel they need regardless of how many civis they kill

I disagree, killing a civilian costs 10 intel, if you kill 3 of them thats 30 intel which can mean 10 more minutes where only one cache is visible and the enemy can focus defenses around 1 location.

[Grump/Gump.45]

I've noticed lately that more and more BLUFOR players don't even care about killing civilians, they'll just mow you down even if you're standing in the middle of the road with your hands up. This ruins some tactics (for example parking bomb car in a compound and hanging out near it as a civilian, waiting for tank to come by) and makes things less fun in general.

What have I always taught? They dont kill what looks dead. Play dead near the car. Problem solved. Its great for un-armed car in smooth wall alley with full squad coming up, have car pre-pointed and wait for them to come so far in with no escape. Run them over.

I agree, the civilian kill message needs to give penalties "You just killed an un-armed civilian: 2 minutes added to spawn. Points set to -100. Team intel -5. Cannot request limited kits." We honestly need more penalties and intel needs to be -10 upon martyr. If they arrest its +10, but if we martyr its -5 intel points.

Plus the shotgun instant arrest, which is un-balanced, un-fair, un-realistic, and removes much humorous TEAMWORK potential for arresting. For both BLUFOR and INS teams at the same time this potential is removed by shotgun instant arrest alone. Stamina removal for shotguns against civilians only to assist in arrest of civilians or even armed insurgents.

Civilian cannot be fully appreciated by either team if every civilian rock throwing protestor has to scatter at sight of a shotgun and for the BLUFOR shotgun is doing all arresting work.

Answer is change shotgun to stamina removal for civilians. This could be justified several ways, either making INS mode shotgun less lethal rounds only, meaning only bean bags and door breaching rounds with no visual distinguished. OR since the buckshot kills insurgents, opens doors and arrests civilians with no visual or controlled shotgun shell ammo change, just have it be based on what you shoot at like it already is for those 3 things (doors, civilians, armed insurgents). Just make shotgun remove stamina.

WHO AGREES WITH THIS

The shotgun instant arrest effect needs to be replaced with stamina loss when it hits civilian. Only to assist cuff arrest, using teamwork. Shotgun instant arrest removes much enriching potential to the game for players on both teams. Humorous entertainment on both sides. The civilian protestors at the moment scatter at the sight of shotgun due to instant arrest, dis-continuing the fun of rock throwing as a crowd defending the cache. The BLUFOR miss out on new teamwork aspects this would provide because one man with a shotgun can just arrest every civilian in view.


A loner civilian wandering by himself is just as screwed no matter what if shotgun instant arrests or just removes stamina, they will get caught either way unless they use rope. The shotgun if made to remove stamina will become 1 of 2 things based on situation, a riot control tool for self defense against aggressive rock throwers of which you cannot kill or know which one to kill (who just healed/dropped weapon)... Or become the tool to help arrest those rock throwers.

Not everyone will get away in big crowd from stamina removal, but due to limited shotgun shells that can be loaded at a time not everyone will get stamina removed as well. Nobody will be instant arrested un-fairly anymore in this situation. Which as I said and others I suggested this to in game agree, shotgun instant removes humorous realistic teamwork potential.

Please Developers consider it. Other players help suggest this. Dragging should be allowed by civilians, but a civilian being seen using medic bag, syringe or that has to be known by individual player intelligence to have been the one to healed armed guy . Identifying the one out of the crowd by what they wearing sometimes because some civilians spawn with other kits, drop weapon and pick up somebodies old medic civilian rock kit. It gives realism. "Yeah That blue shirt, black vest, tan pants one is fair game"

Should still be able to get martyred while dragging. Harboring and giving direct aid to enemy is what makes it fair game to ROE, but they need to know who in the crowd just actually healed somebody or who just shot and them dropped their weapon to join protest. So much missing potential from shotgun instant arrest alone, there can be no semi-permanent crowd for the cache with shotgun instant arrest.

I should be able to be the one to drag armed insurgent to a different un-seen medic in cover, run back out and be thought to have healed them so I can get martyred. It adds visual depth to the game through events, similar to Grand Theft Auto 5 cops dragging each other.

[Grump/Gump.45]

I disagree, killing a civilian costs 10 intel, if you kill 3 of them thats 30 intel which can mean 10 more minutes where only one cache is visible and the enemy can focus defenses around 1 location.

Its -5 intel points for martyr and +10 for BLUFOR being arrested at the moment, I think in the past it used to be +10 and -10. Its un-balanced and the shotgun instant arrest adds insult to this... because of every potential situation shotgun instant arrest removes. It should be a teamwork tool to remove stamina when hit with to slow down some civilians in the crowd from getting away to assist in arrest. Not for shotgun be a teamwork killer and funny situation killer in relation to civilians. It should be +10 or -10.

Proper civilian tactics within using crowds should be rewarded as teamwork tactics to prevent arrest, not punish the teamwork with shotgun instant arrest disintegrating a rock throwing crowd, not how real life works. Crowds eat bean bags, one guy goes down in pain but the crowd is there to check on him and he is good to run fast in a minute.

Its actually the only time crowding in Project Reality should be encouraged, civilians crowd an area, fighters disperse over an area. It would play into the games realism, but shotgun instant arrest doesnt allow for this teamwork. It gives the job of arresting to one breacher who can pop out of nowhere arresting at distance. Removing all the extra steps of cuffing, then removes teamwork of protesting crowds. Only possible justification for having shotgun instant arrest is "civilians on roof" but thats what the rope is for to scare them off.

We have handicapped team by weapons, the new players who want to be insurgents, 2 possible cache locations to defend with these limitations. Its worse when new players want to be civilians, they dont see the realism in potential for escape practice, they bunny hop wasting stamina, they already dont bail out of view of breachers with shotguns. Its bad enough already.

With stamina removal as a civilian you are just as screwed but you get a fair chance to be saved by snipers or dis-appear behind cover if far enough starting. Its not fair for some un-seen breacher to arrest somebody at distance when they are in the safety of a crowd. Removes all potential for teamplay on BLUFOR and the INS team. It becomes a mini-game objective in game, shoot the target with cuffs closest to your civilian. It needs to be balanced and allow for the best possible experience, remove shotgun instant arrest. Replace shotgun instant arrest with stamina loss.

[axytho]

@Grump Please don't write walls of text

[dcm]

As much as I love punishing rabid civi killers. I think it's kinda fucked that they get executed for killing 5 civis.

[WingWalker]

I've noticed lately that more and more BLUFOR players don't even care about killing civilians,

rogdozz is right.

I never hesitate to kill a civi, the penalty never has deterred me.

The intelligence points really isn't noticeable. Its there, but there is nothing telling anyone when it happens and there is no feeling of how bad it is.

The longer spawn time and the negative score (that doesn't matter) is worth stopping whatever it is the civi is doing, or just putting him down for hopping around like a moron.

The punishment would have to be that I am ista-killed when I kill a civi.

That is really the only thing people would care about.

After I walk half way across the map with a kit I've waited for I'm not going to risk killing a Civi to have to start allover again.

That would also make being a civi really interesting for game play.

Maybe have problems if it can't be limited to just small arms kits. For instance an APC couldn't just spray HE rounds allover an area to just kill one guy he saw.

Having the gunner die would basically make the CAS or Tank have to go pick him back up somewhere, and Jets would just be lost with most bombs they drop.

But maybe that would be ok if Civi became a limited kit. One tricky civi could easily cost a team a major assets and points.

I wouldn't mind it.

As much as I love punishing rabid civi killers. I think it's kinda fucked that they get executed for killing 5 civis.

Is this true? I've never killed 5 in a row I guess.

[Grump/Gump.45]

rogdozz is right.

I never hesitate to kill a civi, the penalty never has deterred me.

The intelligence points really isn't noticeable. Its there, but there is nothing telling anyone when it happens and there is no feeling of how bad it is.

More penalties and longer penalties. Aside from not allowing limited kits, spawn timer penalty, points, intel penalty. That's for individual to decide if he keeps doing it, have a report to the SL that they killed a civilian so the SL can put a stop to it. Punish the whole squad for one guys actions, we need peer pressure. If a few dumb civilians who don't listen get arrested by wandering without anybody to save them from arrest, not listening to smarter people and not using tactics can screw over the entire team. Then same needs to be for BLUFOR on a different level of screwing their team over. If the bad civilians getting arrested screw over our team giving 2 caches sooner, then BLUFOR needs to have equal team penalties along with individual.

That means no special kit requests (MG, HAT, Marksmen, Sniper, spotter, Combat engineer) for 30 minutes for whole squad for civilian kill, extending into if they leave the squad. Have a full list of penalties pop up or have it be so many people go read the manual to look. Have it punish the whole squads points, spawn timers, kit requests so peer pressure to not kill civilians kicks in. -10 intel points per civilian killed, why give BLUFOR +10 for arrest but -5 for killing civilian.

Make it even 5 points each side, 10 points is too fast. All it takes is a few new or dumb guys running around as civilians screw us over by getting arrested with 10 points, 3 civilians is 30 points and we cant control people due to their low IQ or language barrier. "How do you be civilian?" is worst question ever, they didn't even read the manual and mess up that insurgency round or every time they do it.

We cant even protect roadblocks as civilian human shields due to this lack of apparent penalties. Roadblocks can be backed up by IED, civilians, fighters, emplaced assets, civilian vehicles that cost intel. But the tank doesn't care. We need the capability to stand in front of them, that capability only comes from penalty risk. Which includes not allowing the breacher shotgun kit to instant arrest anymore, only remove stamina. Hands on arrests only assisted by shotgun to allow humorous protests of throwing rocks, countered by crowd control tactics.

Civilians have many capabilities and are very valuable. Positioning right allows you to do 10 things at once from the spot you pick in view of cache and friendly. This tactical value should be reflected by the penalties.

1.) Be bait for enemy to get killed
2.) Enemy that kills civilian will double check/hesitate to shoot armed guys
3.) Be in view of cache as the most open distraction
4.) Taunt enemy
5.) Prevent roadblocks from being blown up as human shield
6.) Allow armed friendly to cross with knife out
7.) Make enemy lose intel
8.) Provide early warning call outs

Many more specific uses of civilian, could stand in front of a car being put infront of roadblock that needs to wait 1 minute to become civilian car so enemy doesnt kill it early.

[curahee150]

Is this true? I've never killed 5 in a row I guess.

Yes. Yes it is. Case in point where my squad and I killed cas with this feature.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_auolCJoUks


I kinda think the number of civis a blufor soldier has to kill to get executed should be lowered to 3, and the timer that resets that counter increased from 5 to 15 minutes. This will be as beneficial to blufor as it is harmful, as the psychos that harm their team by not caring about shooting civilians have their sprees cut short, thus costing their team less intel points in the long run, while still being pretty fun for civilians. Making the warning text more clear in this regard would also be a good idea.

[Grump/Gump.45]

I kinda think the number of civis a blufor soldier has to kill to get executed should be lowered to 3, and the timer that resets that counter increased from 5 to 15 minutes.

This is a big boy game, we can make it for the whole round not killing civilians, not 5 or 15 minutes. Its simple, if they dont have a weapon, gear or shemagh dont shoot. The penalties need to be for the whole squad it happened in. Peer pressure, removing liabilities from the squad, reminding the rules of engagement by SL.

If 1-5 bad civilians not even trying to escape, just there for their own fun screwing insurgent team over by getting arrested can make the cache known. Then that should be balanced by equally punishing the BLUFOR for their few bad players when they kill civilians. Its very un-balanced tool wise and un-even penalties.

Why is it when we martyr its -5 intel points but they arrest for +10, sometimes with all the work being done by one man a ranged shotgun in a game about teamwork. They have less penalty for killing civilians and more reward for arresting capability with easier tools like shotgun instant arrest. Shotgun should remove full stamina bar to assist in arrest, make them not able to run.

Shotgun un-realistically removing teamwork potential for arrests from BLUFOR, if they want civilian off the roof they need to use rope and tactics, not cheat with shotgun then not retrieve the civilian. Not realistic.

Giving all the teamwork on a crowd of civilians to one guy with a shotgun means civilians have to scatter. We cant gather crowds, meaning more aimless civilian new players screwing us over with lack of penalties.

The tactic for civilians should be strength in the crowd protected from BLUFOR rushing to arrest. The counter tactic for BLUFOR should be armor security to not let fighters peek for thermal FLIR on armor allowing freedom to arrest civilians.

That is teamwork balance determined by the team, not the games functions. Shotgun removes potential from the game for teamwork, humor, player retention and new tactics to introduce to game.

Due to this one function, civilians cant hold rock throwing protests that would require crowd control tactics and armor security for infantry to work on arresting civilians while under fire from insurgent iron sight snipers. Realism tactics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fFLsjb_UJY

[Icaroic]

@Grump
Also, it seems the players don't know the importance of to arrest or get martyr as civilian.
Insurgency maps is getting almost predictable who is going to win (BLUFOR in majority layouts).
I believe, to balance it, we need "encourage" to play as civilians, making it worth to play as. Also more penalty to BLUFOR player when he kill them.

I'm trying to make a new post suggesting to add score points to civilian which dies as martyr and subtract it if he get arrest.
Due this game is not a "only-for-kills arcade", it could make a good difference.
Unfortunately i can't make a new post (idk why).

[WingWalker]

@Grump
Also, it seems the players don't know the importance of to arrest or get martyr as civilian.

This is not totally true. I play martyr a lot, once the other team started seeing the negative points they usually get wise to your tricks.

Maybe 50% of the time.

I'm trying to make a new post suggesting to add score points to civilian which dies as martyr and subtract it if he get arrest.
Due this game is not a "only-for-kills arcade", it could make a good difference.
Unfortunately i can't make a new post (idk why).

This has been talked about in other threads.

I don't know what the official thought is on this, but I think it would be nice to have a point system for martyrs.

It take more commitment and thought than just running and gunning.

[rogdozz]

I kinda think the number of civis a blufor soldier has to kill to get executed should be lowered to 3, and the timer that resets that counter increased from 5 to 15 minutes. This will be as beneficial to blufor as it is harmful, as the psychos that harm their team by not caring about shooting civilians have their sprees cut short, thus costing their team less intel points in the long run, while still being pretty fun for civilians. Making the warning text more clear in this regard would also be a good idea.

STRONGLY agree. This would have several effects and tbh almost all of them are good. Especially for vehicles, for example let's say APC kills 3 civilians, that means the gunner gets executed - APC has to RTB to pick him back up. I think that is realistic, in real life if a mission gets fucked up to the point several civilians are murdered, BLUFOR would probably pull back their APC as well to prevent further tragedy.

Also for CAS, baiting civilians would become a strong strategy, so CAS would be forced to work together closely with ground troops - only hitting select, confirmed targets. No more blindly firing a barrage of rockets at the cache, RTB, and repeat. It would make CAS gameplay more tactical imo, and yes some CAS will die due to pilot being executed, but generally CAS pilots are pretty responsible unlike your average INF or APC player so I think they will adapt.

And as I said I want that every time you kill a civilian it gives you a detailed warning message about what punishments it brings. Some indicator that tells me wether I'm martyrable as a civilian would also be a VERY welcomed mechanic, there is nothing more frustrating than dying as a civilian only to find out you were "killed for helping the insurgency"

Also, just an addition - I think these civilian changes would be greatly complemented by a civilian RKG kit - an armed kit that has only two RKG grenades and no other weapons, but from the outside looks nearly identical to a civilian. It would make Humvee gunners nervous every time they see a civilian on the side of the road, having to keep an eye on them to see if he pulls out an RKG (which takes around 2 seconds so gunner would have some time to react)

[rogdozz]

Why is it when we martyr its -5 intel points but they arrest for +10, sometimes with all the work being done by one man a ranged shotgun in a game about teamwork. They have less penalty for killing civilians and more reward for arresting capability with easier tools like shotgun instant arrest. Shotgun should remove full stamina bar to assist in arrest, make them not able to run.

Shotgun un-realistically removing teamwork potential for arrests from BLUFOR, if they want civilian off the roof they need to use rope and tactics, not cheat with shotgun then not retrieve the civilian. Not realistic.

Giving all the teamwork on a crowd of civilians to one guy with a shotgun means civilians have to scatter. We cant gather crowds, meaning more aimless civilian new players screwing us over with lack of penalties.

The tactic for civilians should be strength in the crowd protected from BLUFOR rushing to arrest. The counter tactic for BLUFOR should be armor security to not let fighters peek for thermal FLIR on armor allowing freedom to arrest civilians.

That is teamwork balance determined by the team, not the games functions. Shotgun removes potential from the game for teamwork, humor, player retention and new tactics to introduce to game.

Due to this one function, civilians cant hold rock throwing protests that would require crowd control tactics and armor security for infantry to work on arresting civilians while under fire from insurgent iron sight snipers. Realism tactics.

I agree. I think civilians are just not strong enough in 95% of cases, only exception is when people work together very closely which is rare nowadays. I think making the teamwork a little easier by removing shotgun arrest would be a good addition. The downsides of that mechanic outweigh the upsides

[WingWalker]

Also, just an addition - I think these civilian changes would be greatly complemented by a civilian RKG kit - an armed kit that has only two RKG grenades and no other weapons, but from the outside looks nearly identical to a civilian.

That is one problem with the civi kit, they don't look like everyone else, so there is no guessing.

Though a grenade would be a little unrealistic. Should be a pistol.

I'm not sure why the civi even exists in PR if the efforts are not more obvious, and the reward more than just the player that killed you gets -100.

It killing you after 3 would not be much of a deterrent, when I don't care about killing the civi, its a target of opportunity, I'm not out hunting civis, otherwise you don't mean to at all it just happens too quickly to think about it.

Playing as a martyr, getting one player to kill you more than once also would be very unlikely against INF. With assets, MGs, or snipers it would work more.

-100 points is nice, but I never really cared about it either as the martyr, or the one that shot the martyr.

So an immediate punishment, such as it killing you when you kill the 1st civi/martyr would be the only real deterrent.