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Playing as the germans just aint fun on most ww2 maps. They are completely outgunned by the m1 garand's semi auto firepower. Everybody who can use the garand does. Even officers too. The kar98k's bolt action nature makes it a pain to use. Not only that it has less than half the ammo of the garand. So what if the m1 cant reload a partial clip. It has so much ammo you dont really care. And people dont really use it as a rifle. I find greater success running into a group of enemies and mag dumping. Most of the time. I will win. Even against german machine guns.

Speaking of which; German machine guns fire too fast and have too little ammo firing time to be effective compared to their american counterparts. 99% of the time I barely see anyone on the german team run a proper mg if they dont have to. Most of the time its either stg.44 or mp40. The semi auto of the mg34 turns it into an iron sight dmr. Which can be useful in the right situation. But those situations are far too few. The mg42 is good yes, but it's very hard to get effective bursts out of that thing in the squad machine gun role. The mg3 doesn't seem to have that problem. I dont know if fires slower or some other magic but it's better. Way better even if it's iron sight only. The mounted mg42 is a different story. However it has it's own shortcomings.

The best weapon on the german team is the g43 and I've only seem the smart squad leaders use it. Even over the stg.44. The g43 is nothing special other than being a hard hitting semi auto rifle.

The problems also extend to vehicles. The american half track has a .50 cal, A .50 cal that destroy most other vehicles. The german half track has the mg42 which is only good against infantry. And if you come up against an american half track if doesn't matter if you shoot the gunner off, you cant destroy it anyway. Giving the rear gunner an mg42 doesn't alleviate much.

So what can be done? Other than giving every german soldier the g43 which is not authentic in the slightest. And without nerfing the us team again.

Well first increase the amount of automatic firepower on the german team in some way. Somebody else on that team needs a spawnable smg. Somebody other than pointman, because he's pretty much the best class on both teams.

Two. The Kar98k needs more ammo. Possibly double. And since germans are pretty much screwed by their bolt actions. Give their machine guns; MG34, MG42, and FG42, more ammo. Like you did with the russian's RPK74M. And give the G43 more ammo aswell. 6 mags aint shit. I go through that much ammo assaulting a position or providing covering fire.

Point 3. There's not much that can be done about the inbalance in half tracks. I admit that. But maybe have it so that their can be more things done to enemy half tracks by regular infantry. For example have grenade that explode inside the half track do much more damage. I've encountered too many situations where I dropped both my frags into an enemy half track and it did fuck all.

I'm not gonna get into tanks or apcs because I'm primarily an infantry player and at most I do mad gunruns aka drivebys with the apcs.

WW2 Germany requires a different play style from any other faction. If you can't adjust to that playstyle then obviously you'll think its shit. Germany plays more of a defensive faction much like insurgents but without the weaponry. Just like germany in real life the only way you can possibly win an offensive is if you have tank and apc support distracting/killing (some of) the enemy as you slowly creep onto them.

I've noticed trying to do anything other than that will lead to a massive waste of resources unless you can get 16 ARs/MGs to assault a position since the FG42 is a beast at close range whilst the other MG variants can provide great covering fire while everyone else advances.

Like Coalz said - you need play a little bit different than any other faction in game. Germany require different strategy than usual gun&blazing.

However I also think Germany should get one more automatic weapon in base kits like in Pointman. It just feels better playing way back in beta testing.

WW2 sucks for the germans

of course it does they lost

dcm wrote:Playing as the germans just aint fun on most ww2 maps. They are completely outgunned by the m1 garand's semi auto firepower. Everybody who can use the garand does. Even officers too. The kar98k's bolt action nature makes it a pain to use. Not only that it has less than half the ammo of the garand. So what if the m1 cant reload a partial clip. It has so much ammo you dont really care. And people dont really use it as a rifle. I find greater success running into a group of enemies and mag dumping. Most of the time. I will win. Even against german machine guns.

Speaking of which; German machine guns fire too fast and have too little ammo firing time to be effective compared to their american counterparts. 99% of the time I barely see anyone on the german team run a proper mg if they dont have to. Most of the time its either stg.44 or mp40. The semi auto of the mg34 turns it into an iron sight dmr. Which can be useful in the right situation. But those situations are far too few. The mg42 is good yes, but it's very hard to get effective bursts out of that thing in the squad machine gun role. The mg3 doesn't seem to have that problem. I dont know if fires slower or some other magic but it's better. Way better even if it's iron sight only. The mounted mg42 is a different story. However it has it's own shortcomings.

The best weapon on the german team is the g43 and I've only seem the smart squad leaders use it. Even over the stg.44. The g43 is nothing special other than being a hard hitting semi auto rifle.

The problems also extend to vehicles. The american half track has a .50 cal, A .50 cal that destroy most other vehicles. The german half track has the mg42 which is only good against infantry. And if you come up against an american half track if doesn't matter if you shoot the gunner off, you cant destroy it anyway. Giving the rear gunner an mg42 doesn't alleviate much.

So what can be done? Other than giving every german soldier the g43 which is not authentic in the slightest. And without nerfing the us team again.

As Coalz said... It takes different tactics with different guns. Me and some guy on Brecourt Manor with 2 M1 Garands took out 4 or 6 Germans with just us in under 2 clips. Evenly dividing the kills. I said in all chat "For K98 Bolt action you need 3 guys to get 6 down".. You dont need to kill everyone, that takes more time giving more seconds and chances for you to be seen and shot, minimize the time exposed and then you run. Thats not just for you, thats for everyone so you can keep the numbers you have. On the War Of Rights game I play with muskets and muzzle loaders, I come from camouflage fire a shot then run disappearing in my smoke into woods or running along cattle fence making more distance.. You need to have guerilla sniper behavior, the K98 needs a bayonet to prod bushes.

There have been times in bushes I favor the knife over the bolt action. War is always you want to keep your enemy away from you, unless you have the advantage to go and overwhelm them. SUPPRESS WITH YOUR BOLT ACTIONS, windows, bushes, woods I could win with everyone having a bolt action, hand grenades and smokes. Thats 50 Iron Sight Snipers ready to compete. Competition will get them more kills. If we could get grenades in the tank hatch or cannon to kill them we wouldn't even need LAT/HAT.

With bolt actions you must become the sniper, the booby traps in bushes with your eyes being the trip wires, hit and run. Just like swimming across an opening, NEVER run over open ground without security. Preferably from the MG34 set in semi auto waiting for the enemy you baited, keep everyone in view by orders. This happens around the cap zones. The rate of fire on machine guns is set by how fast you click. Its supposed to be fired in bursts to stagger ammo use, make it last longer.

Change up your tactics, when you say to use camouflage make sure people are doing it.. Pick 3+ high quality skills to enforce in your squad, camouflage, scan aggressive with eyes/ears, pre-fire with the 1 per cover/cover2cover/in view to save each other/weapon spread.. If somebody in your squad is moving around to other peoples hidden positions, when its time to sit still to listen for footsteps they moving, making noise or they are not actually using camouflage. Maybe they do other things like asking stupid questions your orders answered, not in view but asking for a medic or rally point close to enemy.

Their mind plays games casually like a child not seeing ways to apply skills. KICK THEM FROM YOUR SQUAD, dont let them leave when they want letting them back in. Once they out they out, especially when I said enough times and part of its in my squads name "1 per cover"... "1 per camo". DISCIPLINE.. Ideally I want the type in my squad to watch out for each other as my orders watch out for them, if I step out of camouflage I want somebody to tell me or ANYBODY. Police each other up, camouflage, exposure, discipline.

Its not the weapons, its the men who use them and how they use them. Keep in mind most idiots only use machine gun like its Call of Duty camping, waiting to see something obvious in open even though the game encourages real skills like CAMOUFLAGE.. So you arent going to see every enemy, like that play Alduin who learned in Russian tank on Saaremaa "you wont see every HAT/LAT. When you go past woods, you can only look one direction at a time and they wait for you to pass while hiding in camouflage or behind something so looking forward is pointless. SHOOT EVERYTHING, EVERY NEW ANGLE THAT COMES IN VIEW WITH COAX" --- THIS IS WHY COAX ON TANKS TOTALS 4,000-10,000+ Want to survive and win? Use real tactics. If your enemy isn't then they rely on single opportunity moments like Guerilla tactics.

ASSET players dont know how to play assets, on ANY Project Reality map there should be no lengthy whole map flank.. Germans have great tanks, but job is not to hunt tank on tank, incorporate the infantry and real tank tactics. Get location on map, get bearing/check for obstacles and shoot at the enemy tank across the level terrain of these WW2 maps. Scare enemy tank into moving, keep infantry between you and tank. If you are hidden, but tank is on other side also hidden, with infantry in between.. If enemy tank shoots any infantry with any of its weapons, I fire at its sound as close as I can to its exact location I thin it is by sound. Tanks are dumb, they dont shoot, they sit there scared, infantry finds it, calls LAT up.. Before I know it armor is gone.

Let's just say that PR was made with modern infantry rifles - which are fed from a 30-round magazine, with select fire capabilities - as the basis for the individual soldier's prowess in mind. The Kar98k is so far removed from that we'd either need to re-evalute our baseline from the ground up(which we won't) or have the WW2 theatre deviation behave differently, but for that we'd have to have good reasons:
Our design consideration is to have a mostly level playing field with the usual emphasis on teamwork, tactics and logistics and so far I haven't found the most glaring of issues, outside of, you know, ye olde team imbalance(and Omaha mortar fests). The M1 is good, true, but the G43 is better and the US MGs leave A LOT to be desired. Not to mention the Germans have exclusive access to an assault rifle as well.
All in all, if you were to ask me, both German subfactions are better combat wise than the American ones, but the Fallschirmjäger setup especially. But it's also true you need to know what you're doing with the equipment you're given.

As for some of your other "points":

dcm wrote:Not only that it has less than half the ammo of the garand.

5 is not less than a half of 8.

dcm wrote:Speaking of which; German machine guns fire too fast and have too little ammo firing time to be effective compared to their american counterparts.

The MG42 fires from a 120 round belt which I actually bumped up from the original 100(that's the only belt size it has), the most out of any in that theatre. The only handheld weapon in the entire game - if I'm not mistaken - with a higher mag capacity is the GPMG MG3 at 150 rounds.

The MG34 has a 50 round drum mag which is
a.) 2.5 times the B.A.R.'s
b.) last longer than the B.A.R.'s magazine in a direct shootout; 50 rounds @ 900 RPM v 20 rounds @ 600 RPM

dcm wrote:The mg42 is good yes, but it's very hard to get effective bursts out of that thing in the squad machine gun role. The mg3 doesn't seem to have that problem.

It's not that easy to squeeze just 2 or 3 rounds out of the IRL MG3 either, but as far as this conversation(with respect to a video game) is concerned, what you're experiencing is the placebo effect. Functionally these two are the same weapon with the same stats.

dcm wrote:Well first increase the amount of automatic firepower on the german team in some way. Somebody else on that team needs a spawnable smg.

No. Git gud.

dcm wrote:The Kar98k needs more ammo. Possibly double.
FG42, more ammo

The limiting factor of the Kar98k is not the ammo capacity, it's the ROF.
Already increased the reserve magazine capacity on that one. It's got plenty enough.



@Gump

I see you're playing 16-dimensional Dungeons 'N Dragons, but we're just playing 2.5D chess at most.

Frontliner wrote:The Kar98k is so far removed from that we'd either need to re-evalute our baseline from the ground up(which we won't) or have the WW2 theatre deviation behave differently, but for that we'd have to have good reasons:

Omaha Mortar Fest

@Gump

I see you're playing 16-dimensional Dungeons 'N Dragons, but we're just playing 2.5D chess at most.

Claiming to play "2.5D Chess" in comparison to PR yet for some reason, the Omaha mortar fest complaint happens from a single grid square everyone lands on.

For Omaha mortar fest, how about not having all 50 players land on the very edge of the map in 1,2 or 3 keypads? How about instead of 1 FOB for mortars to shoot at you divide it between 2 FOBS? Players taking both logi boats to that edge of map landing point complicate this, then the fact people drop both crates in same spot even if they just saw the first crate break there. Non-learners. Mortar spread, get out from under the mortars. One man who gets up to move alone gunned down quick. One man starts to move should immediately cue the others to move based on this, any man who runs out is a distraction for limited time. Its not "this man is our distraction", if you got 15 guys running with 1 of them being you then thats 14 different distractions.

Longer alive you stay getting shot at, more enemy attention and ammo wasted. Very useful skill concept if Germans against Americans, very useful for Americans on a beach invasion. This type of thinking wins games. Just another tactic like spreading wide formations, individuals zig-zagging to make bullets miss point of aim.. "oh they are shooting at our FOB, this is a problem".. Then divide it up, answer to win is always in front of their face presented usually as the problem enemy is giving, they need to start giving enemies problems. Cant make mortars stop shooting one FOB, so give them 2 FOBs.

Its all very simple... Change our ways or keep sucking. "Re-evaluate our base line from the ground up". Its a different map and era, get a grip, you making it out to be some whole process external from the bodies mind. Your mind is over complicating the adaptation process taking semi-automatic weapons from humans and giving them bolt actions. You only need to say a few things to yourself "Ok.. I have less total ammo, I need to cycle the bolt before aiming again, I may not be able to kill them all before they get close with their superior weapons".

Everything I say is for survival, winning or killing yet somebody in-game always has to argue with it. Its simple English to repeat. Why do people feel the need to say 1 man per piece of cover in a different way from me or not say it at all in any form? When a squad leader simply says only once "spread out" and nobody changes distance between their bodies. Most dont even check if they are spread, like its too hard to spin around for a second without stopping direction of movement, basically ignoring what you said. This is when I start kicking people. Do people even say any form of this to each other? Teams lose because of the second to second events of idiots, 2 people dying in a single window x100 from predictable and repeatable things, like tank shells.

1 man per piece of cover is a standard, if they cant do this with explosive spread keeping each other in view kick them from the squad. This is where being good squad leader who teaches comes in, how to use the weapons. Out of 50 on the German team how many understand? With no smoke, open desert and 50 guys you can use bullets alone to prevent enemy from peeking from suppression and pre-fire. Send rounds in from every angle, bullets hitting close blur their vision if they dont back off.

Everything is based on concept you see on Omaha, more boats, more men is harder to kill getting more people on the beach, across the beach. Apply that to attacking on every map. Running in straight line toward enemy is just as easy to hit as sitting still, make enemy aim left to right to miss as individual. Zig-zag. As a team make the enemy aim wide. Following right behind somebody instead of being rear left or rear right, means if enemy misses guy in front he can hit guy in rear. 2 bodies close to each other are bigger looking and easier to see than 1 body. Common sense but people still run in straight lines behind each other, knowing grenades and bigger explosives exist in the game but need to be told "explosive spread" and somehow need to have the definition of that self explanatory term elaborated on. The same as saying "1 per cover" or saying the full thing "1 man per piece of cover". These people who dont learn are the ones who literally jump around the corner in Call Of Duty spraying.. They get kills in Call Of Duty, but they cant survive in simulated terrain using defilade, timing.

Take every factor for increased survival chances into account for whatever percentage you can label its effectiveness. Suppression blur from one man I put at 1% because it lasts for a split second and needs more bullets to follow up. Being in the spread formation wider than an area attack over open ground with guys zig-zagging is 50% survival rate, compared to smaller spreads that have lower survival rates. At least half will survive. So put 50 guys at some point making the enemy vision blur from suppression which accounts for 1% per man, plus the other 50% from spread, gives you 100% chance increasing survival rate. Keep adding skill factors and you can have 100% survival rate, anything above 100% denotes level of domination. Once above 100%, even if you stop doing one factor that got to 100% survival rate, you still have a lot to stop doing before it drops. This is your survival rate, lose a man then you lose the rate of survival capability.

If you are going to be seen its best you dont do it alone, otherwise just use camouflage. Causal players are the problem, blaming everyone and everything but themselves for deaths. Unless you are hidden and some casual player is seen walking into your bush which gets machine gun, APC or cannon to shoot into there. People dont realize the effect they have on each other, making the death another persons fault yet are quick to blame others without capability to be aware of themselves.

If you can see far away places, anywhere 360 degrees around you that is where you can get shot from. Having an aware perspective on uniform color against green grass or how objects stand out in the open. "See that bush out there, that object on the green grass? Pretend bush is a soldiers body, the fact you see it is an issue".. Really becomes an issue when Im a gunner because every new bush that comes in view gets a bullet. One man seen gets shot quickly, too many in view moving are distractions for each other. You dont just shoot for the guys on your team, you need to get shot at too so you can save them. You cant fight the same way as conventional weapons on conventional weapons just because you also have tanks and machine guns.

Japanese banzai charges only worked against militaries armed with mostly bolt-actions. Germans charging Americans is about the same as Japanese. Every German has a sniper rifle, the scope doesnt make the rifle a sniper rifle, thats up to who uses it. If your vision works find anything suspect to fire on, everything you aim and shoot at is practice.

They lost, get over it.

You guys are putting personal feelings ahead of fun and gameplay.

WW2 is played only slightly more frequently than Vietnam, and then only a select few maps that are fun for both teams. Mainly Carentan and Omaha. Reichswald and Merville suck!

Carentan depending on the layer can be fun for both teams. Personally I only like carentan as americans when the left side of the map is in play. It's better for germans when the right side of the map is in play.

Omaha is okay on most layers(except night, fuck night layers, cant get shit on omaha night). Although germans have a serious disadvantage due to the lack of logis and tanks. Realism aside I believe that is something that should be fixed. The only time when germans win is when they spam mortars. I should know, I dropped over 100 ammo bags in a single round to my mortarman last night on wn71. We were lucky to have access to a trans truck to bring us ammo. But that's not a fun way to win. I was bored out my mind the entire round. My brain physically began to hurt. I wanted to go out and fight. Not be an ammo *****.

Reichswald on the other hand is awful for the germans. It's a bf2 styled conquest double assault map. Because of the lack of infantry firepower, the germans are at a huge disadvantage. I literally went on a 20 kill streak on that map with M1 garand. I wasn't even trying. That's how advantageous semi auto fire power is on that map.

Merville has a contrasting but similar problem. The battery itself is impossible to assault as americans. The germans have so many emplacements. They can camp there the entire round. Rarely do germans leave the safety of the battery and attack descannville, because it's not worth it. Only the bored and the insane on the german team actually rush the US flag. The only time I've seen germans lose that flag is when they abandoned it. And when it's gone it's impossible to cap it back. The americans dont even need the emplacements to hold the flag from the german counterattack at all.

Vietnam has the same problem but worse. The only fun nam map for both teams is Charlie's Point. Everything else is just boring. Not even Xiangshan could make vietnam fun. Ia Drang, Tad Sae, Barracuda all have their own problems. The latter two maps are only slightly better in modern day settings.

It's quite bold of you to have the nerve to attempt at disqualifying what I said as "personal feelings". I gave you a pretty comprehensive explanation of the thought process involved and, in addition to that, was refuting some the points you mentioned.
I'll be frank: I have absolutely no desire to honour your "personal feelings" on this matter.

Frontliner wrote:It's quite bold of you to have the nerve to attempt at disqualifying what I said as "personal feelings". I gave you a pretty comprehensive explanation of the thought process involved and, in addition to that, was refuting some the points you mentioned.
I'll be frank: I have absolutely no desire to honour your "personal feelings" on this matter.

If a mode or faction aint fun to play, then nobody will play it. Look at falklands. I hate that shit cause being british inf aint fun. Only asset whores like falklands. Unless it's vehicle warfare most of the team is stuck fighting on the ground and in relative close quarters. The argie fal can go full auto which is great for repelling enemy inf in a bind or for storming a position. Goose green is pain for the brits. I hate running submachine guns in modern/near modern conflicts but I have to in falklands because there's no better way to clear out a barn or house or entire village as the brits.

The US has a huge combat advantage with the M1 garand. They dont really even need to use the bar to lay down suppressive fire. Because the garand is so good. I was playing a round earlier today on brecourt and we held first cap for over half the game because it was impossible for the germans to assault us with inf and halftracks. They only managed to cap the first point when their tanks spawned and our tanks were too late to the party. The teams were pretty balanced imo. I feel bad for players stuck on the german team, because I know how unfun it can be, being stuck with a slow firing weapon. Some people here may not care about players on the opposing team but I do. Because I want a fair and fun game. PR is best when both teams are balanced in skill and equipment. Without resorting to mirror balancing. Insurgency being the only exception, because it's fun as shit doing unconventional tactics. When you aint punished for being opfor(Hamas>Insurgents).

dcm wrote:PR is best when both teams are balanced in skill and equipment.

Which for WW2 is not possible, because of differences in doctrines and tactics that each IRL faction had that translate into there weapon capabilities.

dcm wrote:Insurgency being the only exception, because it's fun as shit doing unconventional tactics.

And like everybody told you here (ok do not know what Grump wrote as I really can not read that long wall of text) each WW2 faction and subfaction has it own specific conventional tactics.

Well, it is possible to balance WW2 theatre. Just give everyone Thomsons/MP40 and M1/G43. WE DID IT! We solved the problem that everyone have because modern games usually let you get any weapon for every faction or just have automatics so player instead of adapt to the situation they will adapt gun to situation so... Come on! You have different tools so use them appropriately, don't use hammer as a screwdriver.

InfantryGamer42 wrote:Which for WW2 is not possible, because of differences in doctrines and tactics that each IRL faction had that translate into there weapon capabilities.

This could be said for most any conflict, to be fair.

SemlerPDX wrote:This could be said for most any conflict, to be fair.

True, as we can see that in both PR WW2, Vietnam and Falklands. But for most of world today (as that was comparation base for my comment), GPMG (alternatively light 5.xx mm MG) represents base of fire for INF squad whit 5.xx mm rifles and DMR.

1/8 of the team total between two guys, on Reichswald, the definition of a CQB map. Sure enough Cpt and I weren't using the Kar98k, but - outside of Xenisis who I am reasonably sure is new to the game - the other Kar98k users were over the [2 : 3] kill-death-ratio I'm expecting them to have. And if the others can make up for the lack of firepower on the Kar98k, I'm having a hard time labeling the setup as imbalanced.
Crazy had less kills than any of the Kar98ers even though I gave him the StG 44 on purpose knowing Cpt was likely to perform as per usual and I wanted somebody else with good enough CQB weaponry next to myself. In other words, performing well does not solely depend on the main firearm, but the functioning of the squad as a whole, how people communicate, the tactics involved, whether or not we're adhering towards how the game itself function; naturally having an experienced squad makes this shine through even more clearly when it works. Disregarding Xenisis for a moment, Cpt by himself had more kills than the squad had deaths, hell, even counting in these deaths he tied our Squad KDR almost all by himself.

dcm wrote:They are completely outgunned by the m1 garand's semi auto firepower."

No.

/closethread

Frontliner wrote:In other words, performing well does not solely depend on the main firearm, but the functioning of the squad as a whole, how people communicate, the tactics involved, whether or not we're adhering towards how the game itself function; naturally having an experienced squad makes this shine through even more clearly when it works.

In short, if you can quickscope, the tactic works.

Grump/Gump.45 wrote:Change our ways or keep sucking.

This is quite funny coming from Grump