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Im not against the idea, but on some maps, bots have exclusive access to some of the cooliest asset. Kiowa on Karbala etc... so if it can atleast be 50/50

Hotrod525 wrote:Im not against the idea, but on some maps, bots have exclusive access to some of the cooliest asset. Kiowa on Karbala etc... so if it can atleast be 50/50

THIS!!!!!!!

The Co-op maps that are all about air power have been completely messed up because of this.

Blackhawks are useless on Ramiel. All the choppers are broken on Karbala, Kashan is no longer fun with all the air vehicles being halved, including planes, and helicopters. All the air power gets demolished when we can only get 2 actual player planes up.

The bots will try and cap flags with the choppers on Baracudda.

Baracudda can now be a remake to the helicopter scene in Apocalypse now.

Take the bot ONLY vehicles out or atleast make them possible to be used by players.

Its completely blows my mind why it was decided to be done this way, it was perfect before.

Why arent more people complaining about this?

There shouldnt be air bot vehicles for the coalition, only for the for MEC.

should just make less bot air vehicles and more player ones, ones that bots cant use and handle like in MP would be nice.

I think the changes are fine, at least on Kashan. There are Human-usable planes, helicopters, and vehicles, and if you want, you can even grab the one seater Abrams or T-72 if the bots havent taken it. I do agree the Kiowa on Karbala and Blackhawk on Ramiel should be usable though.

The shittiest thing is that COM vehicles don't work

CommunistColby71 wrote:...I do agree the Kiowa on Karbala and Blackhawk on Ramiel should be usable though.

The 'problem' on Karbala and Ramiel have already been revealed and noted.
They will be fixed.

Toasticuss wrote: The Co-op maps that are all about air power have been completely ruined because of this.

If it bugs you this much don't play them. Seriously.

Blackhawks are useless on Ramiel. All the choppers are broken on Karbala

Again, noted. But I trluy appreciate the over exaggeration

Kashan is COMPLETELY screwed up because of all the bot vehicles including planes, and helicopters. All the air power gets demolished when we can only get 2 actual player planes up.

I'll allow CommunistColby7 to refute that,

CommunistColby71 wrote:I think the changes are fine, at least on Kashan. There are Human-usable planes, helicopters, and vehicles, and if you want, you can even grab the one seater Abrams or T-72 if the bots havent taken it.

The bots will try and cap flags with the choppers on Baracudda.

OMG!!! THE HORROR!
Perhaps we should have them swim to shore?
FYI, the other side of the carrier has a handful of helis you can fly.

Take the bot ONLY vehicles out or atleast make them possible to be used by players.

If there are any other maps with air asset mistakes exactly like Karbala and Ramiel, let us know, but I believe they are the only ones.
Kashan, Muttrah, Barracuda, Archer, Beirut, Jabal and Basrah all have MP versions of the air assets.
Use them!

Its completely blows my mind why it was decided to be done this way, it was perfect before.

3 or 4 versions ago, players complained that they weren't learning the correct way to fly because the handling on the air assets on COOP/SP maps felt different.
They felt different because they were.

Bots couldn't fly the MP map versions as the controls were too 'heavy'.
So we edited them so bots could use them.

Understanding the complaints, we then added in MP versions onto COOP/SP maps so that humans could learn to fly those correctly if they wanted to.
A minority of the COOP/SP population still got confused and complained.

This time around we kept everything, but made it impossible for humans to fly the bot versions of air assets.
The reasoning is obvious.
You can still be a gunner, copilot or passenger.

Why arent more people complaining about this?

Simple. Most players understand what is going on.

'= wrote:H[=Rissien;1480037']should just make less bot air vehicles and more player ones, ones that bots cant use and handle like in MP would be nice.

They are already there for you to use

Coop before was retards taking air assets for teh lulz and doing something stupid, more the once have I found people diverting from armor to air once they make a mistake and they cant bear to wait....like 5-10 mins for their asset to respawn.

I like it like this because people actually use the brains they were given,

God forbid that the DEV's change a couple of things in COOP, and the mod is ruined....trust me if its that much of a hardship you have 2 choices:

1) Don't play and ask for a refund of your money
2) Shut up and play the game.


Jeez its like talking to a bunch of over rated celebrity mishaps here.

i dont want it to be removed, i want it to be tweaked.

Having the bots only vehicles sure makes it fair for the bots. But that's not the point. Bot's don't complain they don't care if they main is being bombed they don't care if they have no air power at all after they are bots and are there to be slaughtered.

Putting in the Bot only vehicles makes it fair but ruins the fun. It was great on Kashkan in 0.91 being an officer sneaking into the main and trying to set up razor wire across the MEC main base and having the entire airforce / armored units covering you. That was great but now because of these balancing it's not as fun as it used to be.
And besides most of the bot only vehicles don't even get used by the bots they just sit at base accumulating rust.

Co-op is generally used for a bit of quick fun and the mod shouldn't restrict that.]
If you want to get all serious go and play on "deployment"

Project reality is good as it makes warfare fun and rewarding.
Real war is not.
The whole point of a game is to be fun if it isn't fun then why bother?
If you want to be super realistic join the actual army.

In either case, it's still a pretty poor substitute for an actual training mode. People abuse co-op and baserape in this mode too, time to retire it?

mat552 wrote: time to retire it?

I really don't think this should be the case. If people just jumped straight into deployment. The pure seriousness of the situation may turn them away from PR.
This is of course at the most extreme. But if you just want some quick simple fun and talk to some people co-op is the perfect answer. Sure there is some base rape but that really isn't too much a problem and people still have a great time. Bots don't complain and that should be used to your advantage in having fun. If your base is getting raped join the other team and join in the fun.

mat552 wrote:In either case, it's still a pretty poor substitute for an actual training mode. People abuse co-op and baserape in this mode too, time to retire it?

Actualy CoOp is there for that. If i want a serious game i go multi, if i wanna have a quick and fun game i go co-op. Bots dont care if you bomb theire main. =)

lukeyu2005 wrote: Putting in the Bot only vehicles makes it fair but ruins the fun. It was great on Kashkan in 0.91 being an officer sneaking into the main and trying to set up razor wire across the MEC main base and having the entire airforce / armored units covering you. That was great but now because of these balancing it's not as fun as it used to be.

Wait.
How does this version prevent you from doing that?
Explain.
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Clearly, I have no idea what you guys are complaining about.
Bot air vehicles were not implemented for 'fairness'.
Where the fuck did that come from?
I already explained how they came about.

Bots aren't wasting your air assets.
And if they do waste, certainly no more than you guys do.

There's a whole other set of air vehicles on each map specifically for you guys to use.
With that said, you have just as many air vehicles as you had in the previous build.
We didn't replace MP versions with SP versions.

mat552 wrote: time to retire it?

What the fuck are you going on about???

@luke, hotrod, ballard.

I was making a joke and using a logical fallacy. The justification for the removal of the actual training mode amounted to "We don't like that players are abusing it to play a hybrid vanilla/PR instead of learning how to fly or whatever"

My point is not only are people still doing the same behavior (including spawnkilling/baseraping and other extremely poor behavior), but now you've got bots in there too, which are by and large not intelligent enough to provide actual combat experience. This isn't the DEVs fault, it's just the way the bots came coded.

The joke goes: "Nothing's changed, time to try something else?"

Edit: Found this, Ballard already knows my frustrations!

'[R-DEV wrote:ballard_44;1386915']
That COOP was advertised as the 'new training mode' was a mistake.
It was not created to be as such.

[R-DEV]ballard_44 wrote:
There's a whole other set of air vehicles on each map specifically for you guys to use.
With that said, you have just as many air vehicles as you had in the previous build.
We didn't replace MP versions with SP versions.

This is not true. All maps but Muttrah and Barracuda, vehicles have been cut short for players.

Al Basrah, the 2nd apache was disabled and moved accross the air field where it does nothing

Ramiel - Used to be 2 player apaches and LBs now there are only 1 of each

Kashan - Used to have 2 apaches, 2 LBs and some others but now they are replaced with bot only and 1 of each king for players

Since you said Ramiel and Karbala have been noted, is Al Basrah getting the 2nd apache back same with the others?

When is this expected to get implemented?

Thanks for giving feed back by the way.

I was in a rush when I typed that first post, I've seen so many people that played co-op on .95s release and every time we played an air map everyone was like "WTF IS THIS BOT ONLY VEHICLE $@#!, IT WAS FINE BEFORE"

If people were learning to fly off the co-op servers I would think we would want the same amount of player vehicles as before with Kashan and the others, especially the black hawks on Ramiel.

But whatever.


ONE MORE THING -

Will you add the ability to Ramiel to let little birds re-arm? Why wasnt it in there before?

So when is there a planned fix for Karbala and Ramiel. I can understand the reasoning behind making some things bot only I suppose but the thing that pisses me off the most is that co-op mode was made so that players can go and do what they want and or learn to do what they want and just blast bots till they feel comfortable playing the actual multiplayer. I'm also really really pissed off that I can't fly my own god damn helicopter against a bunch of bots and get good at killing them with it. I can't play regular multiplayer because I'm actually in Afghanistan. I play to fly and that is about it. When I saw Kiowa's you have no idea how happy I was and now I'm just pissed in general. So if someone can please let me know when you're going to make the fix to Karbala and let me fly my helicopter that would spectacular. Till then I will just continue to be really pissed off at all the Dev's for PR.

1. Navigate to "Battlefield 2\mods\pr\levels\karbala" and backup the file "server.zip"

2. Download this

3. Replace the current server.zip with that one you just downloaded.

4. Load up Karbala Co-Op, get in Kiowa, go own....

If you want to play multiplayer afterwards, just go revert that server.zip file to the one you backed up in step 1.

Thanks Jaymz.

Karbala, Ramiel, Al Basrah - have already been fixed for the next release.

Will do some further tweaks to Kashan as well.

For those who cannot wait until the fixes are released - do what Jaymz posted and you will be able to use helos on Karbala, offline.

Toasticuss wrote: Al Basrah, the 2nd apache was disabled and moved accross the air field where it does nothing

What stopping you from using the jeeps left for players and going to get it?

Toasticuss wrote: Ramiel - Used to be 2 player apaches and LBs now there are only 1 of each

And whats stopping you from using those player vehicles?

Toasticuss wrote: Kashan - Used to have 2 apaches, 2 LBs and some others but now they are replaced with bot only and 1 of each king for players

IIRC those 2 apaches and 2 LBs were evenly split between bot and player... so thats no change, if im right. Also, whats stopping you from using them?

Is there a date planned for the next release or is it going to be like .95 was? And is this even the place that I should be looking?