Recoil has destroyed gunplay

[WingWalker]

Man, this freaking guy...

There is nothing wrong with deviation, testing it last night for my own sanity after reading this thread...

With the AK-47 on Al Basrah....Running and jumping to totally exhaust myself then take a shot with absolutely no settle time at all...

... then shooting at bots at 50 meters +....

I was regularly killing bots within just 2 and 3 shots...

... which is less than 1 second per shot. I don't have a timer, but I'm pretty sure you can make at least 2 shots in 1 second.

I did this several times testing it for myself.

It is very repeatable, and anyone on here can go test it for themselves.

The recent changes to recoil has completely revamped gunplay and if weapons remain as disfunctional as they are, referring to the G3 mainly these kinds of updates are useless.

To the OP...

How can you be so owned just by the recoil of a rifle in PR?

I didn't even notice a significant difference, and I still don't.

[SemlerPDX]

@semler
No. Deviation is and will always be a detrimental gameplay mechanic. Even the modern generation who plays games like fortnite and call of duty. They, themselves complain about the unfair nature of deviation in the newest games. The only games that do deviation right, are games where it is possible to work around it, especially for longer range aimed shots.

What makes PR great; is it's gameplay. In spite of all of PR's flaws(deviation being chief among them). Project Reality is still a fun and enjoyable game.

Does PR need improvements? Yes. Should certain gameplay mechanics be removed entirely? Maybe. Will our friend frontliner listen? Probably not.

It's not a flaw - it's a feature specifically designed and intentionally implemented. That's like saying the thing that makes lemon poppyseed muffins great is their deliciousness, in spite of the flaws of including lemons. It's an essential ingredient that is a core component of what make the thing what it is.

PR is what it is, feedback is awesome and helpful, but when it comes from a base of assumptions or (unintentional) ignorance, it can detract from the discussions that are more to the point of how things actually work and how they may be improved.

I'm certain that all the R-DEV's and R-CON's here appreciate criticism if it has a constructive purpose and intent, but angrily complaining about a failed engagement based on incorrect assumptions about the game mechanics and how they played into that engagement come across as whiney, and I doubt that is your intent. It's just a game - keep it constructive and try to assume that not everyone who disagrees with you is your enemy out to get you.

Deviation was not even the point of this thread, but recoil - OP noted the G3.... this went off the rails.

...
The only games that do deviation right, are games where it is possible to work around it, especially for longer range aimed shots.

So, PR? Because last I checked, people are getting kills left and right, working around and with the deviation mechanics to achieve success - including longer range aimed shots. It is those who are unable to work around it or with it in order to succeed that seem to complain most that "it is impossible to work around it".

[CheeseToast]

I naturally don't retain the information cause I have no reason to remember.

Does this apply to your snip? Because you strike me as a person who snip, so do you just not know how to?

/user infracted for insulting other members - Nate

[dcm]

So, PR? Because last I checked, people are getting kills left and right, working around and with the deviation mechanics to achieve success - including longer range aimed shots. It is those who are unable to work around it or with it in order to succeed that seem to complain most that "it is impossible to work around it".

I believe you primarily play co-op? Co-Op and Deployment are two different things. Real people think, act and react differently than pre-programmed bots. What you may experience in co-op, may not reflect the reality of the situation on the ground of PR proper. Metaphorically speaking of course.

There is no way to accurately work within the deviation system to achieve success. It feels much too random and too unfair. Within the last few updates the gun play has become really bad. I do not believe it is solely because of the deviation system. Some value, somewhere, must have been tweaked, either intentionally or unintentionally. However the outcome is the same; as it manifests most visibly within the deviation system.

The deviation is so bad as of time of writing that you are able to; 'make an outline of bullets around an enemy and not him even once.' The new meta has become to 'Take a Knee.' Just recently on Musa Qala, I with an enfield wiped out half a british squad from 10m away because I was crouched. They all had fully automatic rifles and could not kill me, Because they were strafing from side to side. Not even the automatic rifleman was able to wound me. Every single one of them sprayed and prayed. I felt dirty and apologized for said kills as they were awarded to me unfairly. I should not have won that gun fight. Some people may say 'Well of course you played within the system.' Well in this case; the system is wrong.

But I believe the biggest flaw with the deviation system is that vehicles do not experience it the same way that infantry does. Vehicles are not penalized as drastically with deviation. It is not unheard of for a vehicle gunner to turn 180° and kill a target with perfect accuracy from extended ranges almost instantaneously. Sure vehicles experience over heating and some bullet spread. But that is an insignificant cost for perfect accuracy.


Apologies for the belated reply. It seems that some people do not like the truth be getting told, and look for any opportunity to remove 'dissidents.'

[Frontliner]

Just recently on Musa Qala, I camped a FOB with a Lee-Enfield and managed 4 kills because they spawned in one after the other and didn't know where I was.

Fixed that for you.

[dcm]

Fixed that for you.

That's the thing. They knew exactly where I was. Came right at me too.

If I recall correctly. The fob was in the foxtrot 8 kp1 compound. I did not have clear line of sight to the fob. I saw a guy leave the gate and took a knee on the road. I shot him first. He returned fire but missed. Killed him. Went to investigate inside. Noticed the fob. Was about to plant a watercan. Second guy spawned in and I panicked. I fled back to my spot. I was watching the gate. Guy 2 tried peeking the corner. Shot him once in the arm. He returned fire. Suddenly behind him I see guy 3 begin firing and strafing to his right, map north. Shot him twice. Guys 2 and 4 come out right behind guy 3, together strafing and firing. I popped the machine gunner first. Then turned my attention to the last guy. Who I assume was guy 2. He was in the middle of reloading. Shot him twice. All shots of theirs missed. Now tell me how that aint some bullshit right there? I appreciate a good gunfight as much as the next guy. But that felt dirty. Like I had cheated somewhat.

[Killer2354]

That's the thing. They knew exactly where I was. Came right at me too.

If I recall correctly. The fob was in the foxtrot 8 kp1 compound. I did not have clear line of sight to the fob. I saw a guy leave the gate and took a knee on the road. I shot him first. He returned fire but missed. Killed him. Went to investigate inside. Noticed the fob. Was about to plant a watercan. Second guy spawned in and I panicked. I fled back to my spot. I was watching the gate. Guy 2 tried peeking the corner. Shot him once in the arm. He returned fire. Suddenly behind him I see guy 3 begin firing and strafing to his right, map north. Shot him twice. Guys 2 and 4 come out right behind guy 3, together strafing and firing. I popped the machine gunner first. Then turned my attention to the last guy. Who I assume was guy 2. He was in the middle of reloading. Shot him twice. All shots of theirs missed. Now tell me how that aint some bullshit right there? I appreciate a good gunfight as much as the next guy. But that felt dirty. Like I had cheated somewhat.

You know, I hate to say it but it really sounds like they did that engagement entirely wrong. Unless they had been sprinting at you for an entire 5 seconds, even just AIMING and strafing at the same time puts most of your rounds on a human-sized target in this game at 15m. Even coming from a full sprint and just AIMING while still moving lands most of your rounds on a target at 20m with full auto. If you go from sprinting for 5 seconds and then just hip firing at 20m, you will be all over the place.

Seriously, you may be misrepresenting something. That, or they were completely panicing and actually just missing you the entire time. The ranges you are saying that these engagements are, deviation isn't really at play here. In fact, the only time I have crazy bloom is trying to fire with hip fire coming from a dead sprint.

Have a video of a quick test: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1292241139

[SemlerPDX]

I believe you primarily play co-op? Co-Op and Deployment are two different things.

Wrong. I am a Server License Holder for a PR COOP Server, I've been running gaming servers (not just PR) for over a decade as an administrator of an online gaming community. My actual time in the PR game has more hours logged in Deployment than I have ever logged on our own COOP server. I am quite familiar with both game modes, and the mechanics of how the game works including systems such as deviation (and its evolution/refinement over the years), and where to find most of this data in the game files.

Also, the deviation system is exactly the same in COOP and Deployment. There is no difference, they are the same in that regard.

There is no way to accurately work within the deviation system to achieve success. It feels much too random and too unfair. Within the last few updates the gun play has become really bad. I do not believe it is solely because of the deviation system. Some value, somewhere, must have been tweaked, either intentionally or unintentionally. However the outcome is the same; as it manifests most visibly within the deviation system.

Again, this is your opinion and your beliefs, not facts or the reality experienced by the vast majority of players. Players get kills just fine working within the deviation system every single day, and it is you who has an issue with it which you cannot elaborate beyond something "must have been tweaked".

Apologies for the belated reply. It seems that some people do not like the truth be getting told, and look for any opportunity to remove 'dissidents.'

Again, your opinions are not facts, and this is waaaay off topic.... You were "banned for seven days for calls to violence / no-politics rule" and not for being a 'dissident' -- you'll get no sympathy when you take things to a level that requires this sort of moderation. It's just a game, again, keep it constructive and try to assume that not everyone who disagrees with you is your enemy out to get you.

Once again, this thread is about recoil, specifically the OP noted the G3

[Frontliner]

"It's bullshit having somebody kill you after running while you had the upper hand!" - dcm
"It's bullshit I didn't die when people came at me running!" - same dude, different day

I'm not sure what kind of answer you're trying to get out of me, I'm just saying that you're trying to prove the point you're articulating with two instances that are literally the opposite of each other. Which is horseshit.
I'm also saying that your first telling of the story made it sound as though you were being engaged 1v4 and ended up winning "because deviation bad",
in reality however
you basically fought 4 separate 1v1s with a bunch of dudes
a.) who either didn't or can't aim for shit or didn't have time to shoot(#4),
b.) who came from the same doorway(which means they always came into view while they had to turn some 90 degrees to see you) and
c.) who likely didn't communicate with each other seeing the round finished about 15 seconds later and Brits were low on tickets anyways, "GG, let's just spawn in and go next quick".
The actual events, just like last time on Kozelsk, ended up being a wee bit different than what you made them out to be, and while I agree that the bolt actions are bad to have in a CQB fight in PR, I will also say that it's not like you didn't have some semblance of an advantage either.

In contrast to you my argument doesn't change however. Deviation punishes those who play incorrectly - and missing definately qualifies for that.

[Killer2354]

The only thing I will say regarding recoil is that firing the G3 in full auto with an optic is really punishing/hard to control. It's like this with any gun with an optic, but the G3 a bit more so. Irons or a dot is easier, but the horizontal recoil means you're more likely to miss than you would with a smaller projectile if you do decide to use full auto.

I'm not sure what to think. I run out of mouse space going down about twice as fast with the G3 as I do the M16A4 using optics. Irons/dots is the same, but I can just about squeeze out a full mag with the G3 without needing to reposition my mouse whereas I'm never worried about this with other weapons. This is probably the area that I can agree with - with where I normally keep my mouse, I can fire about ~6 rounds at range against the same target with a G3 w/optic before I have to reposition my mouse to keep firing. The M16A4 can do ~12 rounds before I would need to move my mouse. I still don't think this is overall bad, but I can understand why people believe the G3 is not a good gun.

[dcm]

@semler
I do not play, nor have any interest in co-op. I have played it before though.

You honestly think it's just me who has a problem with the deviation system? Many people do, except they dont come on the forums, because they either have no time or interest to argue with people who may or may not, argue back in bad faith. Because of this pandemic I got nothing but time.(Shit man I haven't played this much PR in ages. Last time was about 12 years ago).

Ban reasons are irrelevant. I've been a member of many other online communities before. If the moderators/admins do not like you, they will turn any minor infraction into a major one. There's a reason why I detest reddit. But that is besides the point.


@frontliner
I'm sure you can pull up my gunfight records from the hog server to confirm my story.

I was misinformed as to the cause of death on kozelsk. However I still believe that I should have been at the very least able to kill the breacher. Regardless if he was using the ppsh or not.

The gunfight on musa qala was not something I should have won. I fully admit that. There is no reason why a full auto weapon should not hit a target 10m away even if strafing.


@killer
What's your dpi? My presets are 500 for sniping, 1000 as default, 2000/4000 as vehicle gunner. I have a 4k screen but I tone it down to 1440p for PR. I tried 1080p, but the it just dont feel right on a 32" monitor.

[SemlerPDX]

@semler
Ban reasons are irrelevant. I've been a member of many other online communities before. If the moderators/admins do not like you, they will turn any minor infraction into a major one. There's a reason why I detest reddit. But that is besides the point.

OH, I see, it was because the moderators/admins do not like you, and not because of the bs you posted. Here I thought that actions have consequences, and that your own actions resulted in a time out. How foolish of me.



Moving onto something constructive you could do is to round up a bunch of those straw men you mentioned and get them to come here to the forums to help better elaborate the details you are struggling with. Not one person here has been arguing in bad faith, there's no argument at all, really. Whole lotta opinions and feelings floating around and little in the way of constructive feedback that could be corroborated as 'how things work' for more players other than yourself.

[Killer2354]

@semler
I do not play, nor have any interest in co-op. I have played it before though.

You honestly think it's just me who has a problem with the deviation system? Many people do, except they dont come on the forums, because they either have no time or interest to argue with people who may or may not, argue back in bad faith. Because of this pandemic I got nothing but time.(Shit man I haven't played this much PR in ages. Last time was about 12 years ago).

Ban reasons are irrelevant. I've been a member of many other online communities before. If the moderators/admins do not like you, they will turn any minor infraction into a major one. There's a reason why I detest reddit. But that is besides the point.


@frontliner
I'm sure you can pull up my gunfight records from the hog server to confirm my story.

I was misinformed as to the cause of death on kozelsk. However I still believe that I should have been at the very least able to kill the breacher. Regardless if he was using the ppsh or not.

The gunfight on musa qala was not something I should have won. I fully admit that. There is no reason why a full auto weapon should not hit a target 10m away even if strafing.


@killer
What's your dpi? My presets are 500 for sniping, 1000 as default, 2000/4000 as vehicle gunner. I have a 4k screen but I tone it down to 1440p for PR. I tried 1080p, but the it just dont feel right on a 32" monitor.

I run 600 dpi at all times with sensitivity dropped down in game to .2 along with hardware mouse pointer enabled in the launcher settings. The way you're telling the engagement and distance, they had to 100% be firing with hip fire. If they had aimed at all, you would have 100% been dead. I have not had issues with deviation, and the testing I've done to replicate what's going on here has actually surprised me with how quick you can engage targets, even after moving at some of these ranges.

Basically: unless your barrel is literally in someone's face, aim down sights. You WILL hit at 10m, even if you're still moving and standing. Deviation is actually quite low in these circumstances. Recoil isn't much of a factor here, either.

[dcm]

Basically: unless your barrel is literally in someone's face, aim down sights. You WILL hit at 10m, even if you're still moving and standing. Deviation is actually quite low in these circumstances. Recoil isn't much of a factor here, either.

I disagree. I've had many instances and encounters where the deviation system reared it's ugly head.

I was in an engagement with a polish soldier on shahadah. I used an RPK and he had the beryl. We were both mag dumping from less than 5m away. He won. I was firing my rpk undeployed and kept my gun on target the entire time. I swear to god I hit the wall around him more than I ever hit him. I literally the saw a vertical snow angle made out of bullets holes form on the wall behind him. I know I opened fire first. There was no time to wait 4-5 seconds for my gun to settle down.

Same thing happened on outpost. I was taliban with pkm and enemy was pole with pkm. Engagement distance was about 10m. We crossed paths in a compound. I can not recall who opened fire first. But I know we were both mag dumping from the hip and strafing. Neither of us hit each other. We both began to reload at around the same time. It was almost comical. Until his friend came up behind me and killed me. I'm not upset that I died. I was laughing at the absurdity of the situation.

Same thing happened on kashan. I'm mg3 doing some room clearing. I run across an enemy m240. We're circle strafing and mag dumping in the bunker. I won that fight. But he had the drop on me. He opened fire first.

Kafr Halab Alt. I'm insurgent rpg gunner. I wait a good 5 seconds for my rocket to accurize. I adjust my mouse barely a fraction of an inch and suddenly my rocket flies off orthogonally to the side completely missing the enemies in the balcony above.

Basrah. I'm insurgent sapper. I come across an inattentive enemy. I pause to line up my shot. Open fire. He does a 180 and pops me before I even get off the next shot.

No. It's all bullshit. I can understand having some deviation so not all weapons are laser accurate. But not so much that the winner is determined more by RNG than any other factors. I swear this deviation system is purposefully designed to be as random and unfair as possible. See that's what I want; A fair fight. Project Reality's Deviation robs gunfights of any and all integrity.

[Coalz101]

Why are we arguing Deviation using CQB examples where Deviation doesn't matter? I've been reading this thread for a while and I can also say, this is basically people complaining about the 1/10000 event of them getting rekt because they either lack skill or they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. PR is not Squad, Insurgency nor Arma, don't compare them as they all got their success from different gameplay features.

We've already deviated from the main topic here (Recoil), which is already more of a lack of knowledge on recoil patterns per gun. Most of the time the recoil is fine if you picked your fights correctly.

[Killer2354]

That's the thing. I'm not sure why deviation is being argued here. Most of the missing I've seen even by testing myself is purely based on recoil. Deviation isn't even the main discussion like you said, and the arguments are really devolving to "deviation bad, I've had experiences that say they are."

I still think the G3 isn't a bad weapon, but I still partially agree that the G3 really is unforgiving when compared to something like the M4. Would I change it? I'm not so sure. I think conventionally, it really shines where the weapon excels: at range. In close, it is really overshadowed by the faster firing and less recoiling guns. Doesn't mean I dislike using the G3, though. Outside of very close range, the one less bullet across the board needed to kill really evens the fight some.

DCM, I'm pretty sure you just ignored a bit of what I posted before: NEVER and I mean NEVER hip fire if you can avoid it, especially with MGs. I would need to do more testing, but I'm pretty sure that the MGs, even in undeployed, have more deviation penalties than normal guns. Also, the RPG is inherently inaccurate to begin with. You REALLY need to record what is going on and make a new thread because right now you are primarily talking about your own experiences with what you remember about deviation. It's really sidetracking what this thread is about: recoil.

[Brotherscompany]

DCM bro do you have Parkinson or insanely high DPI? I honestly cant relate at all to what you are saying no one fails that often, if you are indeed on target you should get the kill provided you fired enough bullets you shouldn't loose that often and sometimes you get killed thats how it is, the other dude also finds it odd he died even though he was firing

Regarding the G3, ewwwww is it utter garbage if you try to use it in CQB with a scope because the situation arose, its honestly the worst gun in the game ld rather have a handgun and holly shit are they unreliable sometimes. Its a superb single fire rifle but it has always been the case

The burst fire has a lot of recoil l really can't place it into words l never run the M16 or M4 on burst it would be nice for it to be a option, especially in other weapons like the Beryl or FAMAS, you never feel like you get anything out of them using burst besides saving ammo

[UncleSmek]

After getting used to the change in recoil i'm still not happy with the changes. AR accuracy is not the problem, however deviation settling time should be lowered in case of weapon slot 4 being used whilst standing still.

[UncleSmek]

Deviation RNG is wack