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Expendable Grunt wrote:That is also how you don't use it...

Yes, marksman kit =/= sniper lite. People still seem to still think so and use it to that effect anyways no matter how much you complain...

swiftdraw wrote:Yes, marksman kit =/= sniper lite. People still seem to still think so and use it to that effect anyways no matter how much you complain...

Well you kinda have no choice when there's 12-14 people on the server, and my SLs orders was to defend the bridge and dam alternating.

How else am I supposed to use it eh? It's not like I ran far away from my squad to go hide somewhere just to rack up kills.

Would someone utilizing a DM rifle, who is stalking, and stealthfully taking out specific targets NOT be a sniper? Because to me, a bolt-action rifle doesn't necessarily have to be a snipers only weapon. Not to do that cheezy reality shit too, but the same rifle given to marksmen are and have been given to snipers.

And I think that a marksman kit can be equated to the sniper kit, short of the ghillie suit(which doesn't do much anyway). The non-shooting element of the sniper is one of the main distinguishing factors between the sharpshooter and marksman. Someone who takes the marksman kit can be a better sniper than a newb with a sniper rifle, if the one with the marksman kit moves, hides, shoots, scouts, etc. That, or you guys are calling snipers the newbs who grab a sniper rifle and sit in the same location until they get killed.

ya, that was an awesome round Skout...

Skout; "Hey Overkill, come check out my war trophy!"

Overkill; "O_O?!? You captured a Blackhawk?"

Skout; "Yup! "

(Btw, i still owe you those 5mec dollars for killing its pilot >.>)

Leo wrote:So you were spawn camping?

IMO, that's only permissible if your keeping them down until a squaddie comes and blows the spawn point up, but from your description it doesn't sound like anything of the kind.

Actually, yes I was. Once the flag was capped, I asked if anyone could get the heavy AT Kit and take out the warrior.

OiSkout wrote:That, or you guys are calling snipers the newbs who grab a sniper rifle and sit in the same location until they get killed.

More or less, yeah. Ok, exception to DM =/= Sniper is when there is >20 people on (I think thats the minimum needed for the sniper kit.)

Still, on a full 64 player server, or even a full 32 player, there is no excuse to grab a DM kit because someone else got the sniper kit. I'm strongly of the opinion that the DM is better supporting a squad than moving out as an individual sniper. DM is a squad based class that provides extra reach and better counter sniper support for the squad.

swiftdraw wrote:Still, on a full 64 player server, or even a full 32 player, there is no excuse to grab a DM kit because someone else got the sniper kit. I'm strongly of the opinion that the DM is better supporting a squad than moving out as an individual sniper. DM is a squad based class that provides extra reach and better counter sniper support for the squad.

I'm not going to say you're wrong, because honestly, I agree with both sides of the department. My only question to you is the "proof." It doesn't necessarily have to be an actual situation that such occured. Theoretical shall do.

My response for the opposing side(to your side) presented a theoretical approach. While I also shall note that a DM's rifle has a slightly longer reach(and at the same time shorter than a bolt-action rifle) than a scoped assault rifle, I am not convinced it is way more effective in a counter-sniper situation. This entails the necessary means of being closer to a sniper in which theoretically it should be hard. Also, riflemen have an increased shooting range proficiency. If anything, that slight bonus to zoom should not provide too much efficiency in comparison with your entire squad, except in circumstantial situations such as sending the DM aside(which he isn't so much of a DM anymore eh?). Meaning if I hear a couple of pings at me and realize a squad is shooting at me(and I'm a sniper), I don't think I'll be hanging around there long. Hell, even if I was in a squad, I'd at least shift over 5m.

At the same time, a DM is supposed to put multiple rounds that are accurate on target(doesn't necessitate a hit), while at the same time, a SAW can do the same detail [IN GAME](also note that I am going to withdraw from psychological warfare at this point, though it has a very strong point here).

And on a slightly different opposing angle, the DM's only true differences to a sniper from my POV are the stalking abilities.

And on a 3rd angle, I am going to willing oppose the statement that a DM is a squad-based class. The only reason I can find it is to be squad-based(within BF2 and PR) is the idea the class has not only a shorter "effective" range, but at the same time, it entails less security duty. That is to say, a squad must present security FOR the DM while the DM also presents the DM's benefit to the squad.

In the end, I don't have a serious gripe with the idea of MM kit being squad-based, but I am going to say keep a slightly more open mind. I only say slightly because there are a lot of n00b players that take it and act as the stationary sharpshooters(which MM is closer to in comparison to a sniper imo). But then there are players who are masters of shooting and terrain and should not be fully limited and yelled at for acting in such a manner. This is why I also believe the MM kit has been reduced from 4 necessary players per squad to 3.

My excuse? Well first, if my intention is to be a sniper, I don't have a 3man squad. I honestly almost never request it(except in the few low-player situations for fun, but I also follow squad orders with some leniency). But if I am in my two man squad and pick it up, I am going to use it more like a sniper because I will not only survive much longer, the enemy(and n00bs) will have a lesser chance to pickin it up. As the NRA says, it's not guns that kill people, people kill people.

PS - If me and my partner actually got the sniper rifle more often and had a decent commander all those times, I would say ask those commanders of the efficiency. But such has not happened often enough(including them not frequenting the forums) so I cannot provide the testimonies of them.

Well I'd hope it has a longer reach than an assault rifle; the M15 IS a battle rifle, after all...

Nice post Oi, now to pick it apart!

OiSkout wrote:While I also shall note that a DM's rifle has a slightly longer reach (and at the same time shorter than a bolt-action rifle) than a scoped assault rifle, I am not convinced it is way more effective in a counter-sniper situation. This entails the necessary means of being closer to a sniper in which theoretically it should be hard. Also, riflemen have an increased shooting range proficiency.

In an large open field, at distance, you're right that a DM couldn't touch a sniper. Best you could hope for is spotting him out and hope for something bigger (like a tank) to take the sniper out or drop arty on his head. But in an urban setting like Al Basrah, you're more capable to get into range of a roof top sniper (smoke and cover-fire are your friend!) and the sooner you shoot him, the better. Also, if you locate him, snipers are generally easy to flank in an urban setting as they are usually glued to looking at one choke point a good distance from them.
Also, I really doubt the rifleman has better kill range than a DM kit. You might be able to argue this with the MEC's scoped G3 (which, in my experience, is still less accurate at range), but against the Chinese rifle, British rifle and M16 the DM > rifleman at range and in power. Well, exception being the British DM, which (I think) only has slightly longer range and stopping power than the rifleman's weapon... I'm not to sure as I think I've only used that rifle once and that was as an insurgent (picked it up.)

OiSkout wrote:If anything, that slight bonus to zoom should not provide too much efficiency in comparison with your entire squad, except in circumstantial situations such as sending the DM aside(which he isn't so much of a DM anymore eh?).

I'm not entirely sure what you me by sending the DM aside, but circumstantial situations is what a DM does. To bring back the quote I placed earlier:

The marksman, however, operates as a regular member within a unit where his skills are called upon whenever the need for accurate shooting arises in the normal course of operations.

The DM value becomes readily apparent to a squad when, for example, a SAW starts to open up from a second story window. With one shot the DM can suppress (cause you usually start bleeding pretty bad to a direct hit) or eliminate (headshot!) the MG emplacement, where a squad of assault rifles it might take 2-3 shots if they can get them in accurately enough.
Really, it depends how you play the DM and how efficient it is within the squad. Personally, in the odd instances I play it, I hang towards the back of the squad (but not away from it) and start scanning probable ambush points at range with my scope. I can generally detect something troubling before the rest of the squad, and if its infantry, take it out. You could argue that a scope rifleman could do the same, but as I said before, the DM is still more accurate, has greater range and, generally, provides more of a punch.

OiSkout wrote:Meaning if I hear a couple of pings at me and realize a squad is shooting at me(and I'm a sniper), I don't think I'll be hanging around there long. Hell, even if I was in a squad, I'd at least shift over 5m.

Yes, but there is a rule for this. Sticking with your squad means they have to shoot at more people than just focusing on little ol' you. Also this is where the DM shines, because while your squad is laying down suppressing fire you can accurately pick off the opposing squad. And lets assume that the opposing squad doesn't have a DM or sniper with them. You can now effectively out shoot their entire squad, unless they bring something heavy to bear like a 'nade launcher. Also moving individually away from the squad runs the risk of you getting in a very sticky situation. In a open field, you just popped up and started hauling out, this will probably single you out as the rest of you squad is prone and trying to shoot back. Even if you're moving prone, it'd take to long to get away from the squad and the fire fight will probably be over at that point. In an urban setting, you might find an enemy around that corner and with now assault rifle to support you at CQB, you're statistically toast.

OiSkout wrote:At the same time, a DM is supposed to put multiple rounds that are accurate on target(doesn't necessitate a hit), while at the same time, a SAW can do the same detail [IN GAME](also note that I am going to withdraw from psychological warfare at this point, though it has a very strong point here).

First I'd argue that the DM is suppose to hit the target with one or two shots, not get close with multiple rounds
Second, you can still out range a SAW and the SAW has this nasty habit of spitting out a lot of tracer rounds, giving away it, and if they're around, it's squads position. Trust me on this, support gunner is usually my class of choice (that and L-AT) and DM's are nasty annoying in range combat. Sure you can chew them up at close and medium ranges by shear RoF, but if they're nothing more than a dark bump on a hill they're very hard to hit. The bullet spread even on short burst gets really annoying at range and you're stuck with iron sights. Really, if your squad runs into an MG like on a roof, the best thing you can do is back up and take it out at range. Or if the guy is just laying around a corner, nade him.

OiSkout wrote:But then there are players who are masters of shooting and terrain and should not be fully limited and yelled at for acting in such a manner. This is why I also believe the MM kit has been reduced from 4 necessary players per squad to 3.

But even being a 'master of shooting and terrain', you'd leave your squad out to dry, I doubt that would win you many friends. Personally, if I was a SL in a full 6 player squad (which I also hate doing) and someone took DM and just ran off with it, they'd be out of my squad in a hurry. Truthfully I'd rather have the DM cover us than to run off and play lone wolf. Now I'll give some leniency if there are only 3 people in the squad, because at that point I'm probably only Spec Ops trying to sabotage enemy assets and doing my own thing myself.
4 or more, I'm getting the officer kit and I want a cohesive squad as they do more damage than any single player could do. Yes one sniper can be annoying and in the long run really help bled tickets from the enemy, but a organized 6 player squad can absolutely devastate un-organized opposition even if their team is just as erratic as the enemy.

OiSkout wrote:But if I am in my two man squad and pick it up, I am going to use it more like a sniper because I will not only survive much longer, the enemy(and n00bs) will have a lesser chance to pickin it up.

In a two to three man squad, yes I can understand that. As I said before, I'm fairly guilty of similar things myself in small squads. But I argue that a lone DM has a higher fatality rate than one in a 4-6 man squad. Though the squad might not be as sneaky as yourself, a well organized one can bring a lot more firepower to bear at variable ranges. The DM has a medium to long range and good against infantry, anything closer, further or bigger is going to end up toasting him.
Also, I'd like to argue that in a fuller server, you'd be taking away that DM kit from a squad who needs it more. Yes you may be in a 2 man squad and want to snipe, but some other squad trying to push up may need that resource to cover their advance and provide supporting fire. With squad to squad communication limited to only being able to rally through a comm (if you have one), you can't easily coordinate a freelance marksman to take out certain positions and as effectively cover a squad. So really, I find a DM much more suited to a squad based role.


Hope that coherent enough, I just woke up and I need my breakfast!

swiftdraw wrote:In an large open field, at distance, you're right that a DM couldn't touch a sniper. Best you could hope for is spotting him out and hope for something bigger (like a tank) to take the sniper out or drop arty on his head. But in an urban setting like Al Basrah, you're more capable to get into range of a roof top sniper (smoke and cover-fire are your friend!) and the sooner you shoot him, the better. Also, if you locate him, snipers are generally easy to flank in an urban setting as they are usually glued to looking at one choke point a good distance from them.

Yea, that is true. But then again they're basically sharpshooters with sniper rifles on a roof hehe.

Also, I really doubt the rifleman has better kill range than a DM kit.

Whoops, miscommunication there. Was kinda drunk when I wrote it up last night haha. I meant the rifleman has increased proficiency from last patch. Meaning in .5, the DM had a huge role, but now the rifleman can partially fill it in .6.

I'm not entirely sure what you me by sending the DM aside, but circumstantial situations is what a DM does.

As in not fully following your squad, but sending him to a location beneficial to your squad.

Yes, but there is a rule for this. Sticking with your squad means they have to shoot at more people than just focusing on little ol' you.

In a countersniper situation, yea, but thats why they run. In a multiple contact battle as you presented(next thing), that is what is true.

Also this is where the DM shines, because while your squad is laying down suppressing fire you can accurately pick off the opposing squad. And lets assume that the opposing squad doesn't have a DM or sniper with them. You can now effectively out shoot their entire squad, unless they bring something heavy to bear like a 'nade launcher.

The thing is people get too cocky with the DM rifle. They assume that it has much more superior zoom capabilities and accuracy, but there are many instances in which a DM doesn't do the pop in and out of cover because they assume they are far enough, and I have shot them or I myself have been in that position and shot. In the situation you stated, you have more reach, but it doesn't necessarily mean you can out shoot their squad.

Also moving individually away from the squad runs the risk of you getting in a very sticky situation. In a open field, you just popped up and started hauling out, this will probably single you out as the rest of you squad is prone and trying to shoot back. Even if you're moving prone, it'd take to long to get away from the squad and the fire fight will probably be over at that point. In an urban setting, you might find an enemy around that corner and with now assault rifle to support you at CQB, you're statistically toast.

I don't know if you are talking about when I said "hell, even if I was in a squad ..." but If you were, I mean if your squad was up against mine, and I heard bullets landing near me, I would definitely move, even though I had back up(thus boosting the idea to flee for a two man team).

First I'd argue that the DM is suppose to hit the target with one or two shots, not get close with multiple rounds

Well yea, I believe that also, but the DM is also supposed to be able to scare the shit out the enemy in a tighter(not closer, but deadlier) situation.

Second, you can still out range a SAW and the SAW has this nasty habit of spitting out a lot of tracer rounds, giving away it, and if they're around, it's squads position. Trust me on this, support gunner is usually my class of choice (that and L-AT) and DM's are nasty annoying in range combat.

Yes, but I'm not talking about facing a DM. I'm talking about running into a line infantry squad and you require some suppression. You can either charge through it(utilizing the DM to take out targets), or fire and manuver.

But even being a 'master of shooting and terrain', you'd leave your squad out to dry, I doubt that would win you many friends. Personally, if I was a SL in a full 6 player squad (which I also hate doing) and someone took DM and just ran off with it, they'd be out of my squad in a hurry. Truthfully I'd rather have the DM cover us than to run off and play lone wolf. Now I'll give some leniency if there are only 3 people in the squad, because at that point I'm probably only Spec Ops trying to sabotage enemy assets and doing my own thing myself.

My argument there isn't for the game, but it can be applied(as I have in the part you quoted). In such situations, I am going to say the three-man team(for ingame). I am never about the lone wolf idea, although it is do-able.

but a organized 6 player squad can absolutely devastate un-organized opposition even if their team is just as erratic as the enemy.

I can make the same argument for a good two-man team.

Also, I'd like to argue that in a fuller server, you'd be taking away that DM kit from a squad who needs it more. Yes you may be in a 2 man squad and want to snipe, but some other squad trying to push up may need that resource to cover their advance and provide supporting fire. With squad to squad communication limited to only being able to rally through a comm (if you have one), you can't easily coordinate a freelance marksman to take out certain positions and as effectively cover a squad. So really, I find a DM much more suited to a squad based role.

Usually, most squads on a full server don't need the DM kit hehe. But thats pretty much on pub situations. If I could say so myself, I can effectively do more damage(read: stall/force infantry to go elsewhere) than a squad. It's a very big deterrence if you're trying to flank but you just keep getting picked off without the ability to fight back. Might as well charge straight into the jaws of the enemy. What I can't do is cap quickly. The only real time I believe that the DM is most useful to a squad is in maps such as Kashan(though armor seriously hurts you hard on it), or Jabal. OR in a more defense-oriented squad. Defensive role is where I believe a DM kit actually shines in a squad.

In an offensive role, even while moving cautiously, one must be "continuously" moving. When something happens, you must assess the situation and either continue with a pitch battle, send some elements to flank, or move your entire squad to a superior location. However, this usually occurs most in an urban setting.

Like I said, I'm all for DM kits being used in squad(hell I play SL most of the time, I would be very happy if this actually occured more in my squad), but I am simply saying the only "incorrect" way of using a MM rifle is to perch up on a building(which is actually correct too, in real life at least haha).

IMO a 6 man "Infantry" squad should have the following in PR:
1x Officer
1x DM
1x L-AT
2x Riflemen
1x Medic

Expendable Grunt wrote:IMO a 6 man "Infantry" squad should have the following in PR:
1x Officer
1x DM1x L-AT
2x Riflemen
1x Medic

Depends for me. In an forest/jungle location (such as Mao Valley in .5, haven't seen it in .6 yet) I'd swap out the DM for a support gunner as that tends to be more useful in CQB. Also 2 medic over 2 riflemen (so 2x medic, 1x
rifleman) can be really useful if you're thinking of going into heavy combat. They might not last as long, but the revive and healing redundancy really helps things along. L-AT is exchangeable for a GL Rifleman if you get on a infantry heavy/only map, but generally a L-AT is always good to have around. This is all my personally opinion however.

OiSkout wrote:Yea, that is true. But then again they're basically sharpshooters with sniper rifles on a roof hehe.

Agreed. Make for easy pickings if they ain't careful!

Whoops, miscommunication there. Was kinda drunk when I wrote it up last night haha. I meant the rifleman has increased proficiency from last patch. Meaning in .5, the DM had a huge role, but now the rifleman can partially fill it in .6.

Ah, ok. I somewhat agree with this as the MEC scoped G3 kicks much *** in this area (though still not quite as good), and the British DM is basically a slightly supped up version of it's rifleman counterpart. Chinese and USMC, not so much. Especially USMC, but then I haven't played as them yet in .6 (insurgency soooo good!) But isn't their rifleman the only one with out a scope?

As in not fully following your squad, but sending him to a location beneficial to your squad.

Ehhhh, not so much no. Maybe up to a roof, but I want him somewhere where I can easily recall him from and lend support if hell starts raining down on him.

In a countersniper situation, yea, but thats why they run. In a multiple contact battle as you presented(next thing), that is what is true.

What makes you think the sniper gets the chance to run? In my experience playing, multiple contact battle is the most offend occurred on a full 32+ server hence my example.

The thing is people get too cocky with the DM rifle. They assume that it has much more superior zoom capabilities and accuracy, but there are many instances in which a DM doesn't do the pop in and out of cover because they assume they are far enough, and I have shot them or I myself have been in that position and shot. In the situation you stated, you have more reach, but it doesn't necessarily mean you can out shoot their squad.

Precisely why I prefer the DM with the squad so they don't end up in this situation.

I don't know if you are talking about when I said "hell, even if I was in a squad ..." but If you were, I mean if your squad was up against mine, and I heard bullets landing near me, I would definitely move, even though I had back up(thus boosting the idea to flee for a two man team).

A 2 man group, yeah I can see your point on running. But as I stated before I really don't care what my squad does if I've less than 4 people in it. I'm such a bad SL...
That being said, I generally mean 4-6 in the squads. In that sort of situation I'm popping whoever is dumb enough to stand up (for whatever the reason) because they're that much easier to hit. Also, you're taking away your weapon from the firing line bringing that much less firepower to the battle. In the time it takes for you to get set-up, the firefight may well be over with your squad wiped out. Now you're really out to dry depending on how far your squad spawns and how many enemy contacts are still in the immediate area.

Well yea, I believe that also, but the DM is also supposed to be able to scare the shit out the enemy in a tighter(not closer, but deadlier) situation.

Killing people scares the shit out of them! Really, if it is indeed a tighter battle, its best not to miss. Also when bullets are popping off around you, how do you know which shots came from what gun? But yes, every time I here an M14 going off, I get a little spooked I'll give you that.

Yes, but I'm not talking about facing a DM. I'm talking about running into a line infantry squad and you require some suppression. You can either charge through it(utilizing the DM to take out targets), or fire and manuver.

Ah, see you brought up that the SAW plays a similar role in the squad (psychologically) as a DM. I was arguing more on tactics and how this isn't necessarily true when facing a squad with a SAW and you have a DM, not one on one. Evidently I went off on a bit of a tangent with my self example on going against a DM as a SAW gunner ops:
Oh, and I rarely recommend charging whether against a squad with a SAW or DM. Hardly ever ends well.

I am never about the lone wolf idea, although it is do-able.

Won't make you a lot of friends in the squad, but yes. Then again, you could lone wolf any kit really. Hell, I've lone wolfed medic and engi a few times. Don't like it though, I feel to exposed.

I can make the same argument for a good two-man team.

Two man team can't take out armor or aircraft at range

Usually, most squads on a full server don't need the DM kit hehe.

Oh, trust me, from experience I know other wise. A good DM with the squad has pulled our bacon out of the fire on more than one occasion.

If I could say so myself, I can effectively do more damage(read: stall/force infantry to go elsewhere) than a squad.

Personally, yes, your kill score will be higher, but in the bigger picture I can argue otherwise. In a full squad you don't stall or divert, you friggin' eliminate watch their tickets drop and move on. Or if its armor, you can stall/divert that too, which a lone marksman with or without a friend can't do. But in a 2 man situation, I can see your point.

It's a very big deterrence if you're trying to flank but you just keep getting picked off without the ability to fight back.

Unless they have a full squad with someone to plink you back. Or, as I said before, have a vehicle.

OK, I might try to finish this later after I get some sleep (10 hr shifts for 2 months suck.) My brain is rebelling against any coherent thought so I'll get to your last points later.

gotta love it when an M14 or any marksmen kit for that matter is put to good use