Ak-74m damage

[LEGIYA]

Shouldn't ak74 do more damage since 5.45 has more stopping power? 5.45 Is a longer bullet and penetrates better at the cost of low rate of fire and bad accuracy compared to 5.56 guns in game

[Mats391]

The AK74 uses 5.45×39mm which is obviously smaller than 5.56x45mm. In game the 5.45x39mm deals slightly less damage (36 instead of 39) than NATO round. The difference between cartridges might not really be big enough to warrant that difference. An increase to have AK74 deal more damage than NATO weapons would be just as unwarranted.
The Chinese round 5.80x42mm also deal same damage as NATO equivalent.

[LEGIYA]

The AK74 uses 5.45×39mm which is obviously smaller than 5.56x45mm. In game the 5.45x39mm deals slightly less damage (36 instead of 39) than NATO round. The difference between cartridges might not really be big enough to warrant that difference. An increase to have AK74 deal more damage than NATO weapons would be just as unwarranted.
The Chinese round 5.80x42mm also deal same damage as NATO equivalent.

5.45 is LONGER(https://imgur.com/a/l4AxlEj) than 5.56. RU standard is 60 gr, while US 62 gr(to be corrected if different).

[Mats391]

Yes, but length isnt everything They have different velocities, masses, ballistics etc and also function differently after entering body.
As I said, I think having both deal same damage would be more true to reality than making either weaker than the other.

[LEGIYA]

Yes, but length isnt everything They have different velocities, masses, ballistics etc and also function differently after entering body.
As I said, I think having both deal same damage would be more true to reality than making either weaker than the other.

Length matters when it comes to penetration, that's why projectiles evolved from a ball to an bullet shape. Right now 5.56 have better rate of fire, accuracy and damage. Ak74 only has decent recoil and nothing else. Feels really trash atm

[Mats391]

We discussed this further and an increase in AK74 damage would have big impacts on Russia vs Militia. Right now the AK74 need 3 shots to kill vs Militia poor bodyarmor. An increase to same damage as 556 would reduce this to 2 shots to kill. That would change the balance on Grozny, Kozelsk and many other maps a lot.

[LEGIYA]

We discussed this further and an increase in AK74 damage would have big impacts on Russia vs Militia. Right now the AK74 need 3 shots to kill vs Militia poor bodyarmor. An increase to same damage as 556 would reduce this to 2 shots to kill. That would change the balance on Grozny, Kozelsk and many other maps a lot.

Give them body armor then, when i google chechen fighters grozny 1990 on half of the pictures they appear to wear body armor. Problem solved

E: Also, Russians tend to get fucked alot more than militia on Grozny. You can also work around it by giving militia hideouts instead of fobs

[Mats391]

They have bodyarmor already. On unarmored factions (Taliban, Hamas, Insugents, etc.) it does not matter. Those always die from 2 shots.

[LEGIYA]

They have bodyarmor already. On unarmored factions (Taliban, Hamas, Insugents, etc.) it does not matter. Those always die from 2 shots.

Ok so you are going to artificially cripple a most played opfor faction because of one map that is Grozny. Its ok for them to die in 2 shots from Britain with scopes, but not ok to die to 2 shots from Ru without scopes. What about giving them better body armor? What about giving them hideouts?

[WingWalker]

Shouldn't ak74 do more damage since 5.45 has more stopping power? 5.45 Is a longer bullet and penetrates better at the cost of low rate of fire and bad accuracy compared to 5.56 guns in game

No, the 5.45 does not have more "power".

The 5.56 and 5.45 start out at similar.

The 5.45 has a more ballistically stable bullet shape than the 5.56. This gives it better accuracy and trajectory out to 400m while retaining a little more velocity.

Though, there has been a lot of technology applied to different bullet designs and loadings for the 5.56. Something you don't have in the 5.45.

There are more accurate loads for 5.56 for 600-800m ranges, as well as many other different bullet designs for different applications.

[LEGIYA]

No, the 5.45 does not have more "power".

The 5.56 and 5.45 start out at similar.

The 5.45 has a more ballistically stable bullet shape than the 5.56. This gives it better accuracy and trajectory out to 400m while retaining a little more velocity.

Though, there has been a lot of technology applied to different bullet designs and loadings for the 5.56. Something you don't have in the 5.45.

There are more accurate loads for 5.56 for 600-800m ranges, as well as many other different bullet designs for different applications.

Accuracy doesn't effect the damage tho

[Grump/Gump.45]

The AK74 uses 5.45×39mm which is obviously smaller than 5.56x45mm. In game the 5.45x39mm deals slightly less damage (36 instead of 39) than NATO round. The difference between cartridges might not really be big enough to warrant that difference. An increase to have AK74 deal more damage than NATO weapons would be just as unwarranted.
The Chinese round 5.80x42mm also deal same damage as NATO equivalent.

I was just reading this about wounds today. Use CTRL + F to find this quote on the page with google directions to find.

"In all these varieties of injuries, the tissue damage is directly proportional to the kinetic energy transferred by the bullet, time taken for the energy transfer, and area over which the energy is transferred. Hence, the type and variant of injury have significant implications in management."

If you want the link you can message me or google "Maxillofacial wound Springer Gunshot Injuries of the Maxillofacial Region"

So as I said before on damage values, the data for each cartridge energy, velocity and other ballistic factors at different ranges can be scaled to Project Reality damage.

Have a listen to this Green Beret amputee who still serves. One of many people who take AK graze wounds to the face and survives without deformation. Don't worry about hitbox work unless its to the middle of the face, hope you are aware the game makes bullets graze for like 1% or no damage sometimes. Ill see a bullet just nick a guy in the head or under the arm, keep that in game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yvr692kFeaU

[Frontliner]

Trying to justify 5.45mm having more stopping power than 5.56mm when the latter reaches on average a 25% higher muzzle velocity doesn't seem right to me whatsoever. And while the 5.45 projectile itself is longer, you yourself stated 5.56mm to be(slightly) heavier. For all intents and purposes within a video game, we calculate higher speed + heavier(same weight) projectile = increased penetration effect when compared. Everything else is just opening up Pandora's Box of endless discussion about the 5.56mm entry ballstics("muh bullet tumbling"), and the more you speculate, the further you remove yourself from the only tangible data set widely available.

What furthermore irks me is that you're not treating 5.45mm being lighter on the shooter having its own set of advantages. Compared to, say, the QBZ, Famas or L85, the AK-74M has about half the recoil these do, whilst having the same shots-needed-to-kill-dynamics for just about everything(does that seem fair to you? Because to me it sure doesn't), and with the changes to the recoil it's no longer the case that 900 RPM weapons shoot faster and have less effective recoil to boot as well.

If you're still having issues in head-on clashes with 900 RPMers, you're either not playing your cards correctly or the other player is better at controlling the higher recoil, and I'd say it's fair if they win the shootout then. Or in other words: You losing an engagement has nothing to do with 5.45mm having slightly less damage, and even if that were the case, it sure would warrant a change given the upsides of the 5.45mm cartridge.

[LEGIYA]

Trying to justify 5.45mm having more stopping power than 5.56mm when the latter reaches on average a 25% higher muzzle velocity doesn't seem right to me whatsoever. And while the 5.45 projectile itself is longer, you yourself stated 5.56mm to be(slightly) heavier. For all intents and purposes within a video game, we calculate higher speed + heavier(same weight) projectile = increased penetration effect when compared. Everything else is just opening up Pandora's Box of endless discussion about the 5.56mm entry ballstics("muh bullet tumbling"), and the more you speculate, the further you remove yourself from the only tangible data set widely available.

What furthermore irks me is that you're not treating 5.45mm being lighter on the shooter having its own set of advantages. Compared to, say, the QBZ, Famas or L85, the AK-74M has about half the recoil these do, whilst having the same shots-needed-to-kill-dynamics for just about everything(does that seem fair to you? Because to me it sure doesn't), and with the changes to the recoil it's no longer the case that 900 RPM weapons shoot faster and have less effective recoil to boot as well.

If you're still having issues in head-on clashes with 900 RPMers, you're either not playing your cards correctly or the other player is better at controlling the higher recoil, and I'd say it's fair if they win the shootout then. Or in other words: You losing an engagement has nothing to do with 5.45mm having slightly less damage, and even if that were the case, it sure would warrant a change given the upsides of the 5.45mm cartridge.

Ak74 has 10 meters per second less velocity than m4 carbine. Ok so it has less stopping power.

910 - 100%
X
900 - x%

In velocity when can say that 5.45 does 98.9%(99%) damage of the 5.56. Yet the bullet still does a double tumble( https://imgur.com/a/Z7ffvIX ) and is 2 grams lighter.

In game, the bullet is super inaccurate, does significantly less damage then in real life, has less rate of fire and ak74m has less scope magnification.

If ak74m gets damage equal to Nato counterpart, its still at an disadvantage as it should be. Nato still has better rate of fire, accuracy and scopes. There is no need for making it artificially worse than it actually is

[Frontliner]

Ak74 has 10 meters per second less velocity than m4 carbine. Ok so it has less stopping power.

910 - 100%
X
900 - x%

Sorry, I did an oopsie. I was citing the kinetic energy these cartridges possess according to RU wiki, which lists
??????? ????, ?? 1143...1528 for 5.45mm
and
??????? ????, ?? 1560-1889 for 5.56mm

Unless you happen to have a better data set, we're going with this for the sake of argument.

In game, the bullet is super inaccurate,

It's not, the AK74M uses the "standard" assault rifle template for its accuracy. It's more accurate than the M4 and there is no bias within the templates to nerf RU, OpFor or the 5.45mm cartridge specifally. Completely baseless assumption on your behalf, you literally just made that up in order to make us look biased against RU or whatever.

does significantly less damage then in real life,

Citation needed. Oh, wait, actually, I just did the citation myself, and the upper end kinetic energy listed for 5.45mm is less than the lower end of 5.56mm, what a shame.

has less rate of fire,

There's plenty of other rifles used by the various faction which also fire at 600 RPM ingame due to engine constraints.

and ak74m has less scope magnification.

That problem you should take to the Russian MoD, not us.

If ak74m gets damage equal to Nato counterpart, its still at an disadvantage as it should be. Nato still has better rate of fire, accuracy and scopes. There is no need for making it artificially worse than it actually is

Except that it has HALF the recoil of the bullpups and about 40% less than the other 5.56mm rifles if memory serves. Stop pretending the cartridge doesn't have advantages of it's own, and stop spreading falsehoods, too, while you're at it.

[WingWalker]

The basic difference is the 5.56 generally has a 300fps velocity advantage over the 5.45.

So the argument is just is that enough of a difference to make it need 1 more hit over the 5.56 in PR.

I don't really think so.

Despite LEGIYA spewing ignorant, angry, and bias **** allover this thread.

Accuracy doesn't effect the damage tho

Yes it does.

In real life and PR.

Its why all marksman 30cal rifles don't get a 1 shot kill, and why the .50cals don't take out trucks with 1 shot.

The damage of a marksman round is lowered to needing 2 shots on a target even though it still shoots the same round as the 7.62x51 of the Sniper rifles. To make up for that it they have less recoil and settle time.

The difference is because of the accuracy of the shooters and rifles. It is a way to model the differences of the two systems/roles.

In real life, its all about shot placement, in fact it matters more than the caliber you shoot.

[LEGIYA]

Sorry, I did an oopsie. I was citing the kinetic energy these cartridges possess according to RU wiki, which lists
??????? ????, ?? 1143...1528 for 5.45mm
and
??????? ????, ?? 1560-1889 for 5.56mm

Unless you happen to have a better data set, we're going with this for the sake of argument.



It's not, the AK74M uses the "standard" assault rifle template for its accuracy. It's more accurate than the M4 and there is no bias within the templates to nerf RU, OpFor or the 5.45mm cartridge specifally. Completely baseless assumption on your behalf, you literally just made that up in order to make us look biased against RU or whatever.

E: Also you used the energy of m855a1 and not m855 i guess?

Citation needed. Oh, wait, actually, I just did the citation myself, and the upper end kinetic energy listed for 5.45mm is less than the lower end of 5.56mm, what a shame.



There's plenty of other rifles used by the various faction which also fire at 600 RPM ingame due to engine constraints.



That problem you should take to the Russian MoD, not us.



Except that it has HALF the recoil of the bullpups and about 40% less than the other 5.56mm rifles if memory serves. Stop pretending the cartridge doesn't have advantages of it's own, and stop spreading falsehoods, too, while you're at it.

5.45 does a double tumble there so its damage should be the same as in 2 hits to kill. Ak 74m is still a weaker gun, no need to make it weaker than it should be as it has less accuracy, less magnification, lower fire rate.
Comparing the bullet that will enter you and get out and a bullet that will do a double tumble, there is no comparison because you will be on the ground if either hits you.
So artificially nerfing it is unnecessary, ak74m is a worse gun but should still get down in 2 bullets

[WingWalker]

The difference between cartridges might not really be big enough to warrant that difference.

Maybe the discussion here should be:
At what velocity/weight (energy ft/lbs) decrease of a cartridge should PR require 1 more shot to kill?

5.45 does a double tumble

The tumble of a bullet inside a target is a failure or a defect, and a random occurrence.

It is not a designed ability of the bullet.

Some bullet designs tumble easier than others.

It happens when it goes through material looses energy with resistance, so it can not maintain ballistic stability.

Nearly every bullet will do this eventually when going through a medium, including the 5.56.

[LEGIYA]

The tumble of a bullet inside a target is a failure or a defect, and a random occurrence.

It is not a designed ability of the bullet.

Some bullet designs tumble easier than others.

It happens when it goes through material looses energy with resistance, so it can not maintain ballistic stability.

Nearly every bullet will do this eventually when going through a medium, including the 5.56.

Im talking about double tumble https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... istics.gif

https://imgur.com/a/Z7ffvIX

[WingWalker]

Im talking about double tumble

I know what a bullet tumbling is, and I have seen them, in real life, not on Wikipedia.

My point is you have no idea what you are talking about.

Re-read my last post, then think about what I said.